401 – Influencer Marketing – Word of Mouth at Scale with Yash Chavan

You're listening to Gift Biz Unwrapped guest episode number 401 Where

instead of one customer talking to five of her friends,

it's one influential customer talking to 50,000

of her fans.

Attention Gifters,

bakers, crafters and makers pursuing your dream can be fun.

Whether you have an established business or looking to start one

now you are in the right place.

This is Gift Biz Unwrapped,

helping you turn your skill into a flourishing business.

Join us for an episode packed full of invaluable guidance,

resources and the support you need to grow your gift biz.

Here is your host Gift Biz Gal Sue Moon Height.

Hi there,

It's Sue and I am so happy to have you joining

me here today.

I know you're in the hectic holiday season,

so it makes it extra special that you're tuning in.

It's this time of year I know you count on for

a huge bump in business and along with that comes high

activity and all routine flies out the window as you rush

to get everything done.

I bet right now you're thinking I'm gonna remind you to

take care of yourself by eating right and getting enough sleep.

That indeed is true.

But what I also want to do is reference you back

to a podcast episode I did a while ago.

It's number 137 titled Five Steps to Merry and Bright Holiday

Sales. Now,

while this title sounds all light and festive,

it's actually a very important show here.

I share with you how to keep the momentum of your

holiday sales extended into the new year.

And the reason I want you to listen to this show

now is I explain how to enhance your holiday season all

around year over year.

So write this episode number down and fit it into your

podcast listening plan number 137.

It's a shorter show and you can knock it out at

double speed if you like.

The important thing is you capture the information while you can,

which is right in this holiday season.

You'll understand what I mean when you listen to the show.

I've actually got a lot of goodness coming your way because

besides that show,

in this episode we're discussing influencer marketing.

This could be a new sales approach to dive into next

year. The exciting thing about this strategy is that influencers are

becoming more and more attracted to smaller brands.

They're discovering that people with smaller audiences are more connected to

their followers and in turn are more trustworthy as products are

introduced and referred to them.

This works in reverse two.

I've seen the tide changing in this direction over the past

year and now's a great time to get an update on

how it all works.

Today we're gonna be talking with Yas.

Chauvin Yas is the founder of cll,

a tool for e-commerce brands that makes finding,

managing and monetizing influencers simple.

He's an engineer by training but a marketer at heart.

After working various sales jobs,

Yas started a marketing agency where he scaled many brands and

software companies to over a million dollars in annual revenue.

Over the last couple of years,

Yasha has been focused on the world of influencer driven marketing

and has worked with over 5,000

influencers. He's created and perfected his own six step system that

any brand can apply to start and scale a successful influencer

program. Yosh,

welcome to the Gift Biz Unwrapped podcast.

Thanks you.

Thanks for having me on.

And that was a lovely intro.

Let's do it.

Good, I'm glad we started it off right.

Yeah. One of the things I like to do first with

each guest that comes on the show is have you describe

yourself in more of a personal way.

Okay. And that's through a motivational candle.

So if you were to describe for us what a candle

would look like that really would speak to you Yosh,

what color would it be and like what kind of a

saying or feeling or quote would be on your very special

candle? I think my candle would be a nice bright orange

saffron color,

like a very,

like the color of the sun when it's rising it's probably

gonna be that color and I think they're like too many

quotes that I live by.

I'm picking one,

but I think if I had to do one on the

candle it would be boring work leads to extraordinary outcomes.

I think a lot of growth is just doing the same

thing over and over again.

Another non-res background on me,

I train mma,

especially in sports like jujitsu or even in like martial arts

in general.

It's a lot about doing the same thing again and again,

like practicing the same kick again and again and again until

you get it right and it gets boring after the point,

but then that's where the progress comes.

So I think it applies straight into business as well.

Like not everything's gonna be exciting.

So you have to get used to the boredom of doing

the same thing over and over and over and over again

until you see the end result.

Right. Cause a lot of the graph is like slow growth

until it finally hits.

But most people just give up here cause it's too boring.

Right. So that'll be my quote.

Yeah, that makes me think differently.

And we haven't ever talked about it with the word boring

before but I think some people just get frustrated because they

try something,

it doesn't work,

it doesn't work,

it doesn't work.

Or they don't start at all because they don't know what

they're doing so they're afraid they're not gonna do it.

Right. But to your point about it being boring and just

rehearse and do it over and over again and practice until

it becomes second nature and you perfect it,

that's when you see the results.

Exactly. Yep.

I think it's both quality and quantity,

right? A lot of people focus on like doing their best

work, but then yes,

you have to do your best work but you also have

to do it so many times that everyone else who's doing

their best work is like out to work by you and

that's how you win.

Right. Yeah.

I think I'm gonna take this just a little bit of

another extension for everyone who's listening who's a maker and hiring

somebody in to help make their product,

it will take them a little bit of time to get

to the point near where your skill level is of being

a creator,

right? They have to have the creative skill but you have

to give them some time to perfect it.

Just like Yasha saying some repetition.

If they don't do it right the very first time,

don't be frustrated and think they're not the one who can

help you.

You need to give them a little time in to get

there. Just came to mind.

So I had to add that in.

So let's take it back a little bit in time.

I'm interested,

I know you started your own marketing agency,

but how did influencer marketing get on your radar?

Okay, so this is a very interesting story.

So I started the marketing agency,

nothing new,

just a few of us,

like four or five people working with brands,

working with SaaS companies.

It was what's called a full funnel marketing agency.

So we did everything from acquisition to onboarding to retention to

revenue, like we used to do like touch all parts of

the funnel.

We weren't just like doing Facebook ads or doing email marketing.

We were like pretty much like all over the place.

We just worked with a few brands and we helped scale

them. Were they all retail or product based brands or services

also or product?

No services.

Product only.

All product.

Yeah. Yeah.

Perfect. Okay.

Not retail though.

Mostly like e-commerce,

like online stuff.

Yeah. Okay.

But still product.

Product, yes.

Got it.

So we worked with them and then if you were in

e-commerce back in like pre covid like 20 19,

20 20,

a lot of the growth top of funnel like user acquisition

was through Facebook ads.

So they were just pouring money on Facebook and Facebook used

to perform well this was slightly plateauing but then it wasn't

bad. And then what happened was Apple launched this brand new

thing called iOS 14.5

and they,

with that they launched a new privacy update which caused all

Facebook ads to,

and this was the time around when Mark Zuckerberg was in

the news.

A lot of like people from Google were in the news

for like this privacy thing.

So Apple took it seriously and then they just stopped.

If you recall,

a couple of years ago and even now your iPhone started

asking you ask app not to track.

Right? Right.

So that was the software update and that basically crashed all

of Facebook ads cuz Facebook couldn't track people anymore.

They couldn't tell you that.

Oh like Sue was interested in product,

product-based businesses.

Yas is interested in martial arts.

They lost all that data tracking.

Yeah. And as someone who was part of that scene doing

Facebook ads,

and I know that some of you listening also are familiar

with this,

but what used to be so great about Facebook ads is

that, and you can tell me how much I know Yosh

after I spent all this money on Facebook ads.

Okay. But before that crash,

once you had a system and an ad that worked,

you knew your return.

So even if you put more dollars to it,

you knew and were very confident of the return that you

would get.

So it was a very stable,

solid, well performing platform.

Forget organic right now we're not talking that we're talking about

with ads.

And so a lot of us who,

especially on e-commerce,

a lot of us relied heavily on that to attract in

new business because it was very predictable and then all of

a sudden the door slam shut and it wasn't predictable anymore

at all.

Exactly. To be fair,

they gave us what,

three months warning?

Maybe six.

Yep. Maybe.

Yeah. I did it that I remember the blue warning popping

up and saying hey you need to fix your conversion events

to something else or something like that.

But then we were seeing the downfall of ads and this

was already in the back of my mind like hey we

need to like pivot otherwise like this is just not sustainable.

And then the iOS update hit the nail in the head

and we were like,

okay, I have two options now.

Right? Either all my clients would fire me cuz there's like

no, no customers that they're getting Facebook or I could do

something to get them customers.

Right? So obviously I chose the latter and then that's how

we discovered influencer marketing and there were like a couple of

options we were considering,

right? So content marketing is a good one but again,

SEO and content,

that stuff takes at least 12 months to really start performing.

So like that's like too long of a timeframe.

We need something relatively more quicker,

right? Because Facebook ads is quick,

right? You could just turn on an ad and two hours

later you have a sales coming in,

right? That's not possible with seo.

So I think influencer marketing was sort of in the middle

where it takes a couple weeks but then you see the

sales come in and it's more long term as well as

compared to Facebook.

So we were like okay let's do influencer marketing and that's

how I just kind of just stumbled across it thanks to

Apple and Facebook and then yeah,

that's how we got into it.

We were really successful at it.

We've scaled like programs from zero to 300 500 creators sometimes.

And then yeah,

we've worked with thousands,

I've lost count.

Like the 5,000

number I gave you was just like,

yeah it's probably 5,000

now cause we've scaled so many influencer programs but yeah,

thousands of creators have been reached out to negotiated with.

So yeah,

that's my influence of marketing story.

Wow, okay.

So this is new learning for me because I also talk

a lot about content marketing and I think it's a good

strategy but you're right,

it's long-term.

Kind of like how we also talk now about being on

Pinterest. Pinterest isn't so much a social media platform now it's

more kind of like YouTube,

like a long-term.

You put it up there and it's gonna work for you

for a long time,

but it's gonna take time to start seeing results.

And you're saying influencer marketing sits between what social ads used

to look like and then what content is Exactly.

Yes, that's what what I'm saying.

Yeah, because social ads was immediate,

it's, it's like a tap,

right? You turn it on,

there were sales versus something like content marketing is like digging

a well like over time slowly you find some,

you find some,

you know it's dry soil and you keep digging,

you find some,

you know mud,

then you keep digging maybe some water and you keep digging

then it's like a well right?

It takes time But then it keeps flowing.

Exactly. With Facebook ads when you stop it's over.

Yeah, that app is done right.

So I think influencers fit right in the middle where it's

not as quick as turning on a tap build also does

not take six months to really start giving some reasonable resorts.

So when you decided that you were gonna target in and

really get to know and understand influencer marketing,

how did you do that?

How did you educate yourself to get to where you are

as an expert now?

For sure.

So I think I've spent for influencer marketing maybe over like

almost close to like depending on what you consider influencer marketing,

I'm close like spending like 10 K on coaching,

on courses,

on books.

But I must say I did not start with any of

this. I think a lot of people tend to like,

cuz influencer marketing is like a weird space where it's like

just not obvious what to do.

Like how do we reach out?

What influencer do I,

how much do I pay them?

Right? So what do I say in my email?

How do I dm,

right? It's just so many questions.

I think people,

it's natural to just want to seek out some sort of

a structure with books and courses.

But what I did was like,

I'm a pretty scrappy like marketer so I just like,

I was like okay,

we need influencers.

The best way to find influencers is on Instagram.

So we just searched some Instagram influencers,

sent them dm,

sent them emails and then it started working and then I

got the ball rolling first and then I invested in all

this like courses,

books and stuff like that and educated myself over the course

of like years.

And it also comes through doing right.

The more influencers you talk to,

the more negotiations that you do,

the more campaigns that you run.

It's like all of that is just learning over time.

Right? Okay.

So I love that because it's a combination of gathering the

knowledge from people who have already been there who are sharing

and then also doing your own experiments and testing and feed

in to figure out exactly how it will work best for

you. Exactly.

So you're not just taking something and replicating what other people

had. You did a combination.

And I think that's a wonderful way to approach anything new

that we're doing.

And let's face it,

influencer marketing is still also very new.

And I think,

and let's correct a misconception right off the bat here and

you've already been stating it.

I think a lot of us who are less tapped into

this think that an influencer has to come to us.

Okay, where what you are saying is the program is be

proactive, decide you're gonna have an influencer marketing program and reach

out to them.

Yes. Right?

Yep. Before we get into everything influencer marketing,

let's make sure everybody who's listening understands exactly what we're we're

talking about.

So I'm thinking like a definition here would be good so

that we all know we're starting from the same place.

Sure. I think at the most fundamental level it's just think

of it as,

except regardless of influencers and social media and all of that,

I think it's just word of mouth at scale.

I think everyone knows what word of mouth is.

It's when your customers shout out or talk about your brand

to other people who also might become customers,

right? So influencer marketing is just a form of word of

mouth where instead of one customer talking to five of her

friends, it's one influential customer talking to 50,000

of her fans,

right? So it's like it's a different form of word of

mouth where it's at scale where one person has a huge

reach of people specific to your target market when they're talking

about you.

So if I were to put a definition to it,

I would just say it's like it's word of mouth at

scale. Okay.

I love that.

And I think that's gonna be the title of this episode.

Thank you.

Perfect. We got it.

Cause it really does,

it describes it all and it's very clear to understand for

sure. Okay,

so you were gonna go on and talk a little bit

more about how it all developed and you know all that.

Yep. Outbound.

So basically I think that's true most of even in e-commerce

what I've seen is that people come from the affiliate kind

of side of thinking where they think the affiliate has to

apply to your affiliate program,

then you approve them and then they promote you.

That's possible.

And we've seen that happen for a lot of brands that

we've scaled.

That comes with recognition,

right? When you are an early stage brand,

not a lot of people know about you.

You have to reach out to these people,

you have to find the right people,

you have to reach out to them with the right message

and the right offer for them.

Like what's in it for them,

right? Obviously for you as a brand,

like there's lots of promotion,

there's lots of reach,

but what's in it for them,

right? So you have to reach out to them with the

right offer and then based on your experiments doing these outreach

messages, maybe you send like 50 messages saying hey we'll do

a percentage commission.

Then you send 50 messages doing like hey we'll pay you

a flat fee upfront.

Maybe you send another 50 messages saying hey we'll do a

combination of a fee plus some commissions.

Then you learn from this and then eventually you build like

a core offer for influencers which they can then apply to.

But then when you are starting out,

at least like to get your first 50 influencers to promote

you, we've seen that outbound usually is just the best strategy.

You're in control,

right? Because you can onboard as many ways you want,

reach out to as many as you want,

you can take it slow if you want,

take it faster if you want.

Versus with inbound you'll just have an application pays there.

But then what?

Like don't have control over it.

You don't have control over how many people apply.

I love what you're saying Yash because you're saying yeah,

get your first 50.

And I think a lot of people are here like,

dang I'd be happy if I got my first five.

You know,

you're thinking bigger and because you've seen that happen.

So I love that.

You know,

I feel like I'm seeing a lot of focus now on

micro influencers that we as smaller businesses,

you know not the big brand names that are on the

top of everyone's mind that are the smaller brands are becoming

more popular with influencers these days.

Yep. Is that right?

You're saying I see you nodding your head.

Yep. No one else can see it but you're nodding your

head yes.

So is that true and why do you think it is?

That is very true and I think there's also another faction

of influencers called nano influencers,

which is even smaller than micro,

right? And I think for us right now for our clients

we are seeing that mostly like nano is the way to

go. Especially if you're like a early stage brand.

And I'll tell you the reason for that.

Most, like you said Sue,

most bigger brands are after the bigger influencers.

Cause it's like if they are,

let's say they're Nike,

right? Nike wants to work with LeBron James,

right? It looks like the biggest of the biggest,

right? The influencer,

the biggest,

the brand is the biggest,

right? And as you keep going like lower and lower in

terms of scale,

they wanna work with like influencers at a similar level as

them. So as an early stage brand,

you are a startup,

right? You're a new brand so you wanna work with a

startup creator,

right? On the other hand as well,

if you are a startup and you reach out to like

someone with like 200,000

followers, they're likely not gonna reciprocate.

But if you reach out to someone with 5,000

followers, they're very likely to reciprocate.

So it's just that kind of like what's the stage that

you are at and who's gonna reciprocate to you?

And then yeah,

most brands that we are seeing right now are having massive

success with nano influencers and let's define that,

right? So it's different where you read it,

25,000 followers is what's like a nano influencer.

Okay? Then anywhere between 25 to a hundred K is micro,

it's what we consider micro.

So yeah.

Alright. If I'm a jewelry maker,

what type of influencers would I be trying to reach out

to? Because I'm making the product and selling the product to

my community.

Yep. So give us just an idea so we understand the

opportunities as you continue talking later.

For sure.

So if you're a jewelry maker,

there are two concepts here,

right? So let's say,

I'll tell you my process of working with the brand.

So let's say if a jewelry brand comes and they wanna

work with us,

we tell them the way we find influencers is,

is two things.

One is like who is your core influencer and who's your

tangential influencer?

And I can explain these concepts.

So core influencer is someone who's posting about jewelry,

who's posting about accessories,

maybe like something that is just directly related to your brand.

So like you know,

jewelry, accessories,

hearings, luxury jewelry,

something like that,

right? Or like whatever your,

let's say you are into imitation jewelry.

So someone who's posting about imitation jewelry is your core target,

right? And then there's something called tangential,

which is mostly like,

so your core is usually like 20% of who your influencers

are and then most of it it is tangential.

So someone who's into jewelry is also likely maybe into beauty,

right? Who's also likely into skincare,

let's say luxury skincare,

right? And who's also into like makeup,

something like that,

right? So it's like similar to like people who are into

jewelry are also into X,

Y, and Z.

And these are like your tangential hashtags or your tangential groups

of influencers.

It's like the same audience but not directly selling the same

thing. But their interests would probably be similar.

Exactly. So your goal should be to not find influencers but

to find sources of influence.

So these are two different things.

Sometimes someone's an influencer but they have very little influence on

anybody, right?

Versus maybe someone's not that big of an influencer,

maybe they just have like 5,000

followers. All 5,000

of those people are like whatever this person says I'm gonna

buy, I'm gonna try it out,

I'm gonna do it in my life.

So that person's a source of influence and that is the

person that you wanna find.

Well And that's also why I think the nano and micro

are becoming more popular because you can have someone who has

200,000 followers but such a small percentage of even that large

number really care cuz there's just the community is so big,

but when you have smaller communities they tend to be more

focused and in depth and loyal.

Exactly. Yeah.

I think it's just natural loft numbers,

right? The larger you go,

the broader your appeal is.

The smaller you are,

the more focused you can be.

You could also actually see it in like maybe pop culture

or television stuff.

So like when someone's like,

let's say they're like a sports person and they're like a

sports influencer,

right? They just talk about sports.

Let's say that sports person has like a hundred thousand followers,

right? But let's assume they also now they go go get

into like let's say their state politics or something.

Right now they just can't talk about just sports,

right? Because their audience has changed.

It's like 10 times larger,

a hundred times larger now,

right? So you have to like go broader even as like

from an influencers perspective,

right? If they wanna go bigger,

they wanna speak about more things in a to a broader

audience and water down their core message.

So especially as an early bank to see the most results,

you wanna work with like the smaller creator with a very

simple defined core message and like work with like more of

those people than chasing that one superstar that you think would

be like the golden unlock for your business.

Because a lot of times everyone's chasing them and you're really

not gonna get that presence or that the bang for your

buck if you will.

Even if they agree to do it.

The smaller brands are much better,

the smaller influencers.

Yes, exactly.

And the bigger influencers also gonna charge you a lot more

upfront cash as opposed to the small influencer.

Usually like small influencers also agree on like a commission basis,

like a revshare or a affiliate model.

And that's the best,

especially if you're like a small business owner,

you don't have external funding,

you're just kind of like doing this on the side or

have your savings that are into it.

You don't wanna like risk paying someone 500 bucks and hoping

that it drives at least 500 worth in sales,

right? You would rather do an affiliate model and smaller creators

are the ones that are most open to them.

Well so tell me cuz now I'm getting myself a little

bit confused here because a lot of the time from the

handmade product or any type of a physical product,

what we do is you reach out to someone and you

send them your product to try,

right? Yeah.

And then the idea is then that they're going to try

it and promote it to their community.

Yep. And so who's paying who at that point you are

sending a product.

Yes. But where's the commissions or the flat fee coming from?

Yeah, so usually like sometimes you can,

if it's a really perfect fit,

like if you are like into imitation jewelry and the influencer

is all about imitation jewelry and your product is really great,

like different from the market,

they might just post for product only.

But very rarely have we seen that work.

What works usually in our case is that if you send

them free product,

yes and you give them a certain affiliate commission for themselves

and if you give them a discount for their audience,

so you're incentivizing all three sides here,

right? Okay.

You're sending free product which is basically rigging the game in

your favor.

They don't have to buy from you,

you're just sending them it for free,

sending it to them for free,

right? You're giving them a reason to post so that they

can earn a certain percentage in commissions so they have a

reason to post.

Now even if they post and nobody buys,

then the whole thing is pointless,

right? So you have to give the audience a reason to

buy and that's where the discount for the audience comes in

where you give them like a 10% off if you buy

using my coupon code or something like that.

So yeah.

Okay. Well and honestly you know I feel like I would

want to send them my product cuz I want them to

take pictures having my product with them cuz that's credibility,

right? Yeah.

So we just got a new puppy,

okay? And our puppy has its own Instagram,

it's biscotti tales if you wanna check it out.

Biscotti like the Cracker Tales,

T A I L S.

Okay. I'm not doing any influencer marketing yet,

but I am getting approached by people,

dog bandanas,

dog bones,

like all of that.

And so us talking comes it a great time for me.

Now obviously we just got him,

I think he has 50 followers,

maybe most of them family,

you know,

whatever. Maybe more if you guys are listening follow biscotti tales.

But I'm having smaller handmade businesses reach out to me with

dog related products saying Hey are you interested in promoting our

brand? We'll send you free product or we're gonna give you

this discount.

That kind of a thing.

They might not be doing exactly it,

right? I don't know.

Yep. But is this the kind of interaction you're looking at?

Yes, this is exactly right.

So I mean there are different flavors to it.

I we mostly prefer to incentivize all three sides so everyone

comes out on top.

But some people like depending on your budget,

on your constraints and what you wanna do and the type

of campaign you're running,

you might do a what's called a barter collab where you

give them a 50 product and they post about you.

There's no commission,

there's no discount,

none of that.

That's a barter collab.

What we do is also called ambassador CoLab where you kinda

make them like a brand ambassador,

which is the best for long-term cuz you can do barter

once, right?

But you can't take,

it's like that doesn't work,

nobody's just gonna keep posting what you for free,

right? So you have to give them some skin in the

game. Someone's been asking me about that too.

I didn't know what that was yet.

I haven't had the time to look into all of it

yet. They're all communicating with me through dms.

So I've got 'em all saved.

I know I need to go back and look at them.

And for me,

even though it's biscotti talking cuz that's how I've made the

account go,

okay I need to know that I like the product before

I'm going to recommend it,

right? Because if I don't And if the Scotty likes the

product, Right?

Well he loves all his scarfs so far,

but you're exactly right cuz I don't wanna be like oh

you know she does all of this and half the stuff

we never even see them using.

Not that You're exactly right as a brand,

you wanna work with creators like Sue who are selective about

whom they promote.

There's a lot of creators you would find online and I'm

sure you've probably seen some of them who just promote every

single brand that approaches them,

right? Cause they pay some money that just loses authenticity over

time. You are not credible.

Cause on one day you're promoting like a,

let's say a vegan health food startup on another day you're

promoting a leather jacket.

Like it doesn't make sense,

right? It's not congruent.

Good point.

Yeah. So as a brand you wanna look for influencers who

are congruent with their message.

It's fine if they promote like a,

let's say a vegan jacket and a vegans like a health

supplement, something like that.

Because as long as it's aligned on so it's like not

incongruent, it's not like hypocritical a bit.

And you wanna work for those kinds of creators and like

Sue was mentioning,

you wanna work with creators who will only promote something if

they like it.

Cause that's where true advocacy comes.

Like if they actually love your brand,

then like the affiliate commission and all of that is just

like a icing on the cake anyway.

Wanna promote you cuz you are so awesome,

right? So find that TRIBE of people who would promote you

organically and then I incentivize them to promote.

It's kind of like if I were to give a similar

analogy maybe for the business owners,

cuz we also spoke about hiring right at the beginning.

You don't wanna hire someone who would only work at your

company for the money,

right? You wanna hire someone who would anyway work at like

they're any way a great fit.

And then obviously like you gotta pay them,

right? That's like,

that's fine,

right? Yeah.

But you don't wanna work with someone who's just doing it

because you pay them more or just doing it cuz they

desperately need the money cause they're just not gonna perform well

over time.

Especially you wanna work with team members who are like motivated

by your brand,

who have full buy-in,

who live the brand's ethos and then you obviously like pay

them, you work with them,

you treat them as family,

all of that same for influencers.

You wanna work with influencers who would anyway potentially become customers

of your brand.

They anyway love your product and then you are obviously giving

them affiliate commissions so that you know they're incentivized to Boche.

So that's like an analogy.

Yeah. Got it.

That's a good point.

Yeah. One more thing but I wanna get into your six

step process a little bit.

But it brings up another question.

As a small business,

let's stick with jewelry cuz that's where we started.

We'll stay with that theme here.

Is there a certain number of influencers you should have?

Because at some point it just,

it gets to be they're not doing anything but promoting anybody

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So in terms of number of influencers,

what we've seen work is that,

like you said,

like a lot of brands would be happy to have five

and I'm talking about 50.

Usually a lot of brands just think small with the number

of, and they think that having like five,

10, like a dozen people promoting them is going to result

in sales and replace like Facebook ads for them.

But that pretty much never happens unless you somehow convince like

five super famous people to push about you on commission only.

That's not gonna happen.

You need a decent volume of creators.

And what,

by that I mean at least like 30 to 50 influencers

promoting you on a consistent basis on your program.

What Does consistent mean?

Weekly, monthly Actually depends on the product,

right? So what's the use case of the product?

Let's say like a skincare product.

Let's say a sunscreen,

which you would use every day when you go out,

right? Then maybe that's a weekly cadence where they pushed about

it once a week.

So people are reminded if it's like something like let's say,

say a hiking product,

which you'd actually use once a week every weekend when you're

out on a hike,

then it's better to promote it monthly,

right? Cause that's like kind of naturally,

it'd be weird if someone's posting about like this hiking stick

every single day,

right? It's like does like no one's going hiking every day.

So it's like based on the product.

But usually by consistent what we mean is one influencer should

post about your twice or twice in a month depending on

the product.

Okay? So you would have,

let's make a magic number be 30.

Okay, so you would have 30 different outside influencers promoting and

talking and bringing attention to your brand to their audience.

Which then the goal obviously is for sales to come into

you. You get to collect the email and then you,

you know,

hopefully you have an email marketing program,

then you're able to communicate with them moving forward,

Correct? That's the ideal,

Correct? Yes.

And then you can build on it of course accordingly.

Yeah. Based on how it works,

you can,

I've seen brands sustain it at like 50 and like honestly

if you're,

let's say you're doing good on Facebook,

you're doing good on TikTok and like your content's starting to

work, having a community of 30 to 50 ambassadors is like

probably one of the best things that you can do for

your brand.

Cause it also helps you get creatives for your Facebook ads.

You can reuse their reviews on say Instagram,

TikTok or whatever on your landing pages.

So instead of like text reviews,

imagine adding like videos of people talking about their brand on

your product page.

That's like insane,

right? You can reuse it.

It has organic content on your social.

So it's like it's touching so many,

you can reuse it in your email flows even like,

hey noticed you left this product in the cart.

Here's what Sue,

who's like a jewelry enthusiast says about this product,

right? It's like,

it's just so organic and natural.

It's like having a friend recommend a product to you,

right? So you can reuse it in so many ways.

It's just very powerful to have like these 30 to 50

people who are posting about You.

Yeah and especially if you are an e-commerce brand only.

So you're not going out to shows,

you're not in wholesale in your local areas and you're just

selling online.

I know this is a big sticking point for a lot

of people here is I've got my website up or I

have a shop on Etsy and it's not moving any product

or it feels like such a fight and such a struggle.

Yeah, this could be your solution and for those folks,

you know 30 to 50 on a continual basis and maybe

if you're doing a combination because you do go out to

shows, maybe you start with five or 10 and add to

it as you can.

You do apply this on top of your specific situation too.

Of course.

And Josh,

there's churn also to your influencers,

right? Yes.

Some will come in and some will come out,

right? Yes,

that's correct.

That's a great point.

So churn is definitely a problem.

We call it attrition factor.

Okay. Where a certain percentage of,

but like churn is a good way to also put it

is that some percentage of them would just post once and

then never post again or post twice and then then never

post again.

So you have to factor that in by having your outbound

engine running Constantly.

Yeah, it's like,

it's just the same as customer acquisition,

right? Let's say you acquire a hundred customers,

not all of them are gonna keep buying from you month

on month and now you can dress right?

The marketing keeps running.

So if even if customers drop off,

new customers come in and you grow and you make up

for the churn,

right? So it's the same with influencers.

You have to have the outbound engine running every week and

keeping on acquiring new influencers.

But obviously like you can go a little bit more aggressive

in the start and reach out to hundreds of people.

But once you have a critical mass of like 30 to

50, you can then reach out to maybe like 25 to

50 people every week and onboard a couple every week and

then keep the engines running.

So Yeah,

once you've got things rolling and then you have a system

down, then it just becomes procedural and routine.

Exactly. You're right.

Yep. All right.

So I'm dying to know more about your six step process.

Okay. Where do we get to start?

I wanna know everything,

but you tell us what you can,

Okay, yeah,

I'll go through all of the six steps,

wonderful and summary and if you want me to dive into

detail in any one of them,

just let me know and we can dive in.

Okay. What's the purpose behind the process?

I was just about to start with that.

Yay. Go for it.

I can create it retroactively.

I did not like start off with this or like anything.

It just comes from experience of what I've seen over and

over again with influencer programs and how they grow is like

there's always like these six common steps that brands can take.

Like I said in the beginning when you asked me about

what did you do to educate yourself,

right? This is like one of the shortcuts that I've seen

that brands can just follow this six step system pretty much

blindly at face value and they don't have to do like

anything else that I did.

Cuz all of this is like a synthesis of all of

my knowledge to give you the first track to growing an

influencer program.

So that's where it came from,

that's the purpose of it.

And now we'll dive in.

So step one is prospecting is finding the influencers.

Step one is not strategy,

step one is not taking courses.

Step one is go out,

log into Instagram and search for influencers who are posting content

about your brand.

So that may be if you're a jewelry store for example,

right? You can go search for hashtag jewelry on Instagram,

right? And then find influencers who are already creating content around

that. And then that leads us to step two,

which is outreach.

Like reach out to them.

I'm thinking if I do hashtag jewelry,

I'm gonna find a ton of jewelry makers.

Yes. I'm also going to find,

I don't know what to call them,

but kind of like roundup accounts,

reach out to us if you want to be shown on

our account.

And some of them are paid,

some of them aren't.

Are those the people we're looking for?

No. Again,

so jewelry is a very,

I agree with you,

it's a very broad kinda hashtag to use.

I am actually looking at Instagram right now.

So you would would use something like hashtag jewelry addict.

So a jewelry addict is going to be someone who's not

necessarily like a jeweler or like another brand.

It's going to be someone who's,

oh, I'm a jewelry addict,

right? Something.

Or like hashtag jewelry shopping maybe.

So something like that.

Or what about,

I don't know what the hashtag would be,

but someone who shows you how to wear jewelry,

how to accessorize maybe.

Yep, exactly.

Like the fashion flare.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. So you wanna find people who are posting about jewelry,

not like other brands,

not like Roundup accounts and all of like we've worked with

roundup accounts,

they don't really work that well.

Okay, so not the roundups,

okay, Not the roundups,

not the other brands.

Obviously you wanna find people who are organically and even under

the hashtag jewelry,

I'm seeing some posts like there are like posts of people

who are doing,

cause on Instagram especially,

you see like top posts and recent posts,

right? Split into two.

Most of the top posts are gonna be like big brand

accounts, but the recent posts are gonna be like people who

are posting about hashtag jewelry,

right? And then eventually you'll find more hashtags as you keep

doing this research like jewelry of today,

jewelry addict,

like I just found this like in two minutes on Instagram,

if you do this for like 30 minutes every day,

you'll find more and more hashtags around hashtag jewelry love I'm

seeing on Instagram right now,

right? So yeah,

So and then write down the hashtags.

So you have a good pool to search through and then

you go into those hashtags and then you find the specific

accounts that could be approachable for influencing,

Correct? Yes.

Okay. That's all number one.

Prospecting Number one is done.

Got it.

So now let's say you have a list of like 50

to 7,500

accounts ideally who are posting about your niche,

right? That's your,

again, so core and tangential we are on the core right

now, right?

So you'd find a list of your core people who are

posting about you.

Now step two is outreach.

So reach out to them with something that is very focused

on giving,

not focused on taking,

not focused on making a deal with them,

not focused on paying them for a post focused on simply

opening up a conversation and seeing where it goes.

So the email or the DM should be something dms would

work well for people who are smaller,

like less than five,

less than 10,000

followers, emails work better for anyone who's above 10 K,

15 K followers.

So that's like quick tip there on dms versus emails.

What the DM or the email should say is pretty similar.

You say something like,

Hey I saw your content.

Don't start with,

hey I'm the founder at jewelry brand one 20 three.com,

we make the amazing guests jewelry in the whole of America.

None of that,

right? Even if you do,

Even if you do,

yeah, especially if you do,

right? So if you do that,

you risk talking about yourself,

right? With your dms and your emails.

You gotta answer two questions,

what's in it for me and why you,

right? So you start off by answering why,

like why are you choosing them,

right? So like hey found your content about let's say like

imitation jewelry on Instagram and really loved and give like a

personal compliment,

right? Really loved something that they did in their content or

like their dog or something that's specific to them so they

know that it's coming for them.

It's not like some general mass outreach that you're sending out.

So once you do that,

then in the next paragraph or the next line you write

something like we have this brand,

our philosophies align.

Something like that.

Like where I think your content is really aligned with what

we are trying to do with our ambassador program.

Would you be open to chatting?

So don't end with something like,

hey can we work together or are you taking collabs from

brands or what's your poor post fee?

Just say,

are you open to collaborating?

Would this be worth considering?

Right? So you're simply opening up a conver and they can

say no like and that's fine,

but you wanna open up a conversation with them as opposed

to just asking them to post about you.

So that was step two,

which is outreach right?

Now moving on to step three,

which is your creator offer,

right? This is the stuff that I spoke of when we

were talking about like the discount code and the affiliate and

all of that.

So what is your creator offer,

right? So creator offer,

according to me consists of three things.

It'll consist of what you're giving the creator in kind like

in like actual physical product or something like that.

It'll consist of the commission that you give them for every

sale or like a flat fee or whatever you are paying

them, whatever the like the money transaction is.

That is number two.

And then number three is the discount that you have for

their audience.

You combine these three things and you have something known as

your creator offer.

Okay? So basically it should say something like we are gonna

offer you x product,

offer you X amount in commissions and give your audience a

y percent in discount if they order using your discount code,

right? So that's like your creator offer in one line.

Once you have that,

that is step number three and that will be your basis

for your conversation with creators.

So like when you outreach,

obviously they're gonna reply to you saying Hey let's do this,

let's do that.

Here are some ideas,

whatever you can send them your offer saying cause then they

reply with a yes.

Then they say yes I am open to collaborating.

Then it's your job to send them your offer like hey

this is what I'm offering,

right? I'll give you this product this much in commissions and

this much in discount for your order.

So it's very clear for the creator as well and they

can quickly read one sentence and make a decision as opposed

to sending PDFs or contracts or doing like complex negotiations.

You have it clear in your mind that hey this is

our offer and we are gonna only focus on working with

creators who say yes to this offer.

Right? And then do that.

So that was step three.

It's like creating your offer and pitching it to creators.

Step number four seems kind of like obvious or like it's

a given but a lot of brands ignore it.

Step number four is shipping.

So the way you ship product,

it's an indicator of how likely they are to post about

you. So if you send your product in like a cardboard

box, they're not gonna be like super,

it is just another package that they get,

right? You should like gift,

wrap it,

add a personal note to it,

add extra goodies to it and make it as overwhelmingly positive

as possible.

Cause like it said,

right, the unboxing is the only touchpoint with a 100% open

rate. Like your email campaigns have a certain percent open rate,

your ads have a certain percent click through rate,

but everybody opens their packages,

right? Especially if it's something that they've ordered or something that

they've, you know,

received from a brand.

You are so right and we already know that it's a

gift coming to you so obviously you're gonna open it.

Exactly. Yeah.

So it's like your best chance to impress them with like

everything that you have,

send them free goodies,

send them swag.

And it doesn't have to be like if you're like a

small brand,

you probably don't have like t-shirts or mugs with your brand

name on it.

That's fine.

Send them a personal note.

Anyone can take five minutes to write a pers 10 personal

notes. If you're reaching out to 10 influencers right hand write

it or like you could technically print it and then just

add like some personal element like sign it or something like

that and send it to influencers so that they should feel

different. They should feel special cause they are right,

they're gonna promote your brand.

Oh so this packaging should be up leveled from even the

packaging that you send out the regular product to your customer.

It's like the influencer shipping program,

Correct? Yes,

that's exactly right.

Okay. Can I just make a comment?

Don't put in any sprinkly sparkly things that are gonna come

out and make a mess of desks.

Yeah, thank you please.

Because it's gonna have the op,

it might look pretty but it's gonna have the opposite impact.

I've had that happen to me several times and it's like

oh I'm so mad.

Ah, it's the pain talking.

Yeah. Yeah.

So that was step number four,

which is shipping and overwhelming them with how good your shipping

experience is.

Step number five is more logistics.

So now you've shipped,

now you've done everything you can to make sure that they

post, you've had reached out to the right people.

You, first of all,

you've found the right people,

you've reached out to them in the correct way,

right? You have sent them the right offer that's appealing to

them. They've said yes,

you've shipped them a product.

Not only have you shipped it,

you've done your best to really like impress them with the

experience. Now it's up to them,

you've given them so much,

most likely they're gonna post about you.

Now what happens after the post is actually you're tracking the

sales that come in.

So step number five is tracking the sales.

And usually this is done through some kind of a failure

link or some a discount code.

We mostly prefer discount codes when starting out cause you don't

have to pay for additional software for the affiliate links.

So yeah,

just track like every week have like a discount code tracking

session, have like 30 minutes every Friday.

How do we know that they've posted?

Do you ask them to tell you their posting schedule or

how does that work?

Multiple things.

So usually you would also follow them on social media,

especially if you're starting out and you'll just know when they

post. And most influencers when they post,

they will like send you the link saying Hey,

I've posted about you.

It's mostly like manual,

like back and forth in terms of you just following them

and you just notice a post already.

Or they usually just send it to you over email saying

Hey this is the link I forested,

let me know.

Stuff like that.

So that's how,

that's how we try.

And my guess is you don't ask them or require them

to do that cuz then you're giving them more work.

Like if they're doing the work by posting.

So let it be on your end.

You already know who has agreed and who you've sent out

things to.

So as we start,

it'll be 5,

10, 30 people accounts that you're tracking,

right? Exactly.

Yeah. Okay.

All right.

And like once you scale to like hundreds of influencers,

it's, it's like impossible to keep track of it manually.

And in that case there's like social listening tools that you

can use to make sure that,

you know,

when they mention your brand,

you track it automatically.

That's like a don't worry about it right now.

Right? Yeah.

So yeah cuz a lot of people tend to like look

at software,

look at this and that and tracking links and how do

I do all this?

And then they just never take action.

You're right,

exactly. You know US yash,

you know us well.

So yeah,

these were the first five steps and it's a six step

system. If you do the first five steps correctly,

you already have a very good influencer program,

like steps number six.

But to go from good to great,

you need step number six.

And step number six is not tactical,

it's more philosophical.

It's to build relationships with these people.

So posting about your brand once is fine,

twice is fine.

But then if you don't have a relationship with them,

they're like,

it's not gonna be long term.

Right? So then your acquisition engine has to keep running like

at, at like a heavy volume every week.

And after a point you'll reach a point where there's like

no more influencers in you.

Cause there's only so many people pushing about mutation jewelry,

right? And you'll reach a limit and then nobody's that you've

reached out to everyone that there was to be reached out

to, right?

So you gotta build relationships with the people who are posting

about you,

keep them engaged at them in a WhatsApp group,

slack group,

something like that.

And basically keep sending them free products.

Do different kinds of things with them.

So like it doesn't always have to be a product-based collaboration.

It could be a live session,

it could be them taking over your social media for a

day, right?

Could be like inviting them over to your factory or over

to your kitchen and you know,

making a product with them,

showing them behind the scenes,

something like that.

Treat these people as you would treat your friends and basically

like just make friends with them is the point,

right? Because if you do that then and it goes beyond

money, then it goes beyond like the brand.

It becomes you and the creator,

right? As the founder of the brand.

It's your job to be having to be maintaining these relationships

and you have to be intentional about this cuz it's easy

to just lose track.

So keep track of these things and make sure that you

are, you know,

engaging with them.

Make sure that they know like some secret insider information about

upcoming products behind the scenes of the,

the brand,

stuff like that.

And you will see like these,

I have this saying like maybe this could be on my

influencer marketing candle.

Like relationships,

compound transactions don't.

So if you do transactions,

that's fine.

It's like,

yeah, okay.

Commerce, right?

Relationships will grow over time.

Absolutely. Yeah.

Okay. And I'm also thinking just as an extension of that

is tag them on your email list and you can send

specific emails just to top influencers.

Exactly. It can be a combination of one-on-one communication and then

very targeted groups of people communication too.

But I love that full circle.

And of course I have two things to say.

One's a question.

Okay. Do you ever fire influencers who've agreed to work with

you and aren't performing?

Like do you ever decide yourself to trim down the list

cuz nothing's happening and here you have this discount code out

there and maybe they're only buying product for themself at a

discount and never posting.

Well it could happen,

right? It could happen,

It's possible.

But if you select the right kind of people in step

one, we've very rarely seen that happen actually.

Cuz our step one is very robust.

We only find like the best kind of creators.

So it's hard to go wrong with those kinds of,

but yes,

to answer your question,

we have bulged programs before with like no,

it also kind of once you're at scale,

right? These things come in when you are at like a

hundred, 200 influencers,

when you're at like 30 or 50,

most people are gonna post about you.

Once you reach a certain scale you will have like some

dead weight,

right? And then we make sure that we don't like fire

them in like the traditional sense of it being like a

negative connotation to fire,

right? We can just tell them that hey,

we have a very robust like follow up process.

Like if someone's just not posting,

if we don't see their code in like the weeklys for

like a month,

we just reach out to them saying,

Hey, you've not posted about us.

What's going on?

Maybe like they're just busy,

something's happened,

right? It's fine.

Like they can not post for two months.

That's completely okay.

But just check in with them,

ask them what's up if they're just not interested or if

they say I'm not interested anymore,

or if they just don't reply to you for two,

three months in that case,

just send them what I call like a breakup email saying

Hey really sorry we have to do this,

but we're focused on keeping our ambassador community niche and only

for active people.

So I'm gonna deactivate your coupon code right now,

but if at all you're ever interested in working with us

again, please reach out and I'm happy to enable it again.

Right. Yeah,

there's something very amicable and things on good terms with people.

Yeah. Putting your account on pause,

reach out when you are ready to go again or something

like that.

Exactly. Something like that.

Okay. The other thought I had when you were saying,

you know like in terms of deepening relationships,

having people come to your kitchen and see how,

you know those delicious cookies you make are made,

things like that.

Yep. Influencers could also be people in your local market.

So if you are a local bakery,

send the mayor could be an influencer.

Exactly. Yeah.

Or someone who is a teacher at a park district of

your kids' classes.

Yep. Could be an influencer because their online community,

I'll say,

yep. Are people part of the neighborhood community,

the physical community and they are also potential customers of yours.

Yep. So that would fall into the transgen,

right? How do you say that word?

Tangential Tenile.

I can't say it,

but that would fall in that category of prospecting,

right? Cause it's not a direct map,

but for local businesses.

Huge opportunity,

Huge op.

Totally. Like I went on another podcast and the host asked

me like how does this work for local,

like if a local shop wandered like a cafe wanted to

do it right?

I was like,

okay. So you will always find someone in a certain niche

in your local area,

in your city,

let's say,

right? Maybe not in your neighborhood,

but for sure in your city,

right? Let's say it's a cafe in New York.

Just take that example.

So there's a lot of people posting about hashtag cafe culture,

New York hashtag Coffee nyc,

something like that,

right? So reach out to them,

say, Hey,

we'll give you like free coffee,

come over with your friends or have host a meetup with

your fans and then hey,

we don't just organically promote us.

And then promotion is just a consequence of them being there.

So like working with local creators is definitely,

it's not something that I have ever done directly cuz we

mostly work with like national level e-commerce brands.

But that's something that totally,

I don't see a reason why it won't work for a,

maybe on the smaller scheme,

maybe you won't have like 15 influencers.

Maybe you just have 10 or local in your city who

regularly promote you and then Yeah,

that's totally like an avenue.

Well And it can be a combination.

Exactly. Yeah.

Maybe you have two or three local and the rest are

all e-commerce.

But I just don't wanna discount that cuz I think those

could be really valuable and powerful connections for you too.

Yep, yep.

Totally. Okay,

so well now I think we should probably wind down here.

I could think and dream up a million other questions,

but I won't.

I'm gonna let you have part of your day for yourself.

Yeah. But tell us more about what C offers if people

are looking to dive deeper,

do more with you.

Yeah, share with us a little bit about that.

Sure. So basically C is a platform for branch to come

on board and run and create an influencer campaign in 30

minutes. So Sarah,

by the way,

in Sanskrit means simple and easy,

right? So because in like we discussed,

it's so complex that you don't know where to start,

what to do,

blah, blah,

blah. We make it super simple for you.

You can come on our platform,

it's a free trial,

you don't have to put your card in.

Find influencers.

All of the six steps can be done inside of C.

Find influencers,

reach out to them,

negotiate with them,

send them your offer,

ship your products through C,

track performance inside of cll and obviously maintain all of your

relationships inside of C.

So all of it is like simplified for you in like

one app,

so you don't have to use like 10 different things.

It's a very structured,

kinda it's,

it's more of an assistant than it.

It's like an app.

So it keeps you all organized.

Exactly. So if you're new to it,

especially, you should consider using to manage your program.

But even if you don't,

we have a very good resource called the academy on our

website. I guess you will leave the link in the show

notes, but definitely check that out.

If like new to influencer marketing,

you just wanna like check out like what are the different

ways that I can do this?

How do I reach out?

If you have all these questions,

we have all of them answered on our academies.

It's the best resource on the planet to learn influencer marketing

for free On the planet.

Planet. Yes.

Wonderful. Totally go there.

Yeah. Even if you don't start a free trial,

I think that's like a very good resource to just learn

from and do some influencer stuff for your brand.

So Yeah.

Perfect. Well you are definitely up-leveling the whole world of influencer

marketing, giving people an entrance way to come in.

You've tested the systems,

you have a very understandable six-step process that honestly,

I mean a couple of these steps I would've never thought

of. So thank gosh for you that you're here and you

know that you can share that with us.

This has been tremendous,

Josh, thank you so much for coming on and sharing all

of your wisdom and experience with us.

Thank you for having me,

Sue. And we,

I'd love to turn it another time,

maybe in a year.

There you go.

It's a date.

Here we go.

Are you as excited as I am about the potential for

you with influencer marketing?

It's a different way to leverage social media.

That makes a lot of sense.

Hopefully you've written down ASHA's six steps and are ready to

dive into the first one.

Prospecting, it actually sounds like a lot of fun if you're

enjoying the podcast and would like to show support.

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I wanna make sure you're familiar with my free Facebook group

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I got a really fun post in there that's my favorite

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