346 – Why You Want a Micro-Weird Business with Denise Blasevick of S3 Agency

Gift biz unwrapped episode 346.

And that's when I realized branding.

Isn't what you're telling people.

It's how you're getting them to change their minds about what

you have to sell Attention.

Gifters bakers,

crafters, and makers pursuing your dream can be fun.

Whether you have an established business or looking to start one.

Now you are in the right place.

This is gift to biz on wrapped,

helping you turn your skill into a flourishing business.

Join us for an episode,

packed full of invaluable guidance,

resources, and the support you need to grow.

Your gift biz.

Here is your host gift biz gal,

Sue moon Heights.

Hi there and happy small business Saturday.

I absolutely love this weekend of sales,

even with the lingering sluggishness of Thanksgiving dinner,

I'm taking full advantage of yesterday's black Friday,

today's small business Saturday,

and also don't forget.

There's cyber Monday.

It's a holiday shopping mega boost for sales and hopefully your

recipient of loads of new orders.

And you're also supporting your favorite small businesses too.

I also want to send a special happy Hanukkah.

Shout out to all who start lighting the candles tomorrow night

hugs the mayor.

I want to remind you that holiday shoppers need you as

a handmade small business.

Even more this year with all the supply chain issues we're

experiencing. I encourage you to sign up for your local shows

and get in front of your soon to be customers because

we need you this year more than ever.

I talked about this in my recent tips and talk episode,

number 34,

go back and take a listen to hear how you can

both help your business and customers get gifts for the holiday

shopping season.

We are going to need to depend on you this year.

So the time to act is now another option for holiday

gifts is our brand new gift biz merchant shop.

Go take a look.

You can find that right on our website at gift biz

unwrapped, with all this talk about shopping going on.

Have you ever stopped to think about how you decide where

you're going to spend your money?

Yes. A special eye catching graphic or creative reel might lead

you to discover a new brand,

but more than likely this weekend,

you're checking out the deals from companies you already know and

support. How did that happen?

How did they get on your favorite list?

And even more importantly,

how can you get on other people's favorite list?

It happens through a strategy called micro weirding.

It's like concocting a potion that magically attracts.

Yep. You definitely want to make your business micro weird.

Here's how Today it is my pleasure to introduce you to

Denise. Denise is CEO and co-founder of the S three agency,

a creative agency specializing in brand elevation.

She's worked with clients like BMW of north America and eight

o'clock coffee.

A self-proclaimed battler of boring branding.

Denise believes that differentiated brand positioning is critical to sustainable sales

growth because when marketing is rooted in this positioning customers make

decisions based on differentiation versus lowest price.

Denise is an inductee into the advertising hall of fame of

New Jersey and has won hundreds of awards for her creativity

beyond agency life.

She spends as much time traveling and experiencing the world with

her husband and teenage son as possible.

Denise, welcome to the gift biz unwrapped podcast.

Thank you so much,

Sue. It is my pleasure to be here and great job

with my epithet there.

The battler of boring branding,

it can be quite a tongue twister.

I love the battler of borne brand because I think this

is going to be a really,

really eye opening conversation for our listeners.

But before we do that,

I'd love to have you describe yourself in a creative way.

And that is through a motivational candle.

So if you were to create a candle that really would

resonate with you and have Denise written all over it,

what would it look like by color and quote,

The color would absolutely be red.

And my quote would be,

you can do anything.

You can't do everything at least not well.

So don't burn it at both ends so True.

And I think this is something you may not be as

familiar with the handmade market,

but especially when people are starting as a creator,

you can make everything because someone who's creative can paint and

then they may be quilt a little bit and then they

crochet a little bit.

And so one of the big challenges here is what do

you present and sell?

Because when you sell everything,

you've neutralized your creativity for everything.

It's true.

And I think that's actually very hard for people who are

extremely creative in a lot of ways.

If there's only one thing that you do and do well,

that niche has sort of created for you.

But when you can do so many things,

when, when the canvas is blank,

that's a lot harder than paint by numbers.

Very true,

but it gives you an opportunity for creating a personal brand

too. They just walks you right into that.

Talk with me a little bit about how you're zeroing in

on Brandy and specifically where that became your passion.

When I started working in the agency business before I had

my agency,

which I've had 20 years,

so it's been a while.

I was very fortunate that my first clients were really major

brands. And when I looked at what made them better than

their competitors.

Yeah. So you could buy the Kool-Aid to drink the Kool-Aid

and go,

yes, this is so much better than that.

But really it was about the idea that they were able

to change the perception of people's minds,

about what they were selling.

It wasn't just about what they were selling.

And that's when I realized branding,

isn't what you're telling people.

It's how you're getting them to change their minds about what

you have to sell.

And that was really enlightening to me.

I was like,

wow, I love that psychological aspect.

I love being able to go and get to the root

of something and make a difference versus just making pretty pictures

that some people like and some people don't right and advertising,

you have a lot of subjectivity.

And if you can root it in something that really is

very, very deep and differentiated your chances for success,

regardless of whether or not someone likes the picture are much

more improved.

Plus what comes to mind to me,

based on what you're saying is it gives you so much

more opportunity to define yourself.

It really does,

right? There's so many products and services are out there and

companies are having new ones launch every single day.

That means that there's more and more competition.

And there kind of a couple of ways you can go

with that.

You can be the lowest price,

right? So you can be like the commodity of all commodities.

It's tough to really make a lot of money doing that.

You can be the highest priced and like a really differentiated

brand or at least one that people are willing to pay

more for it.

Because again,

they're buying into what you mean,

not just what you're selling or you can be in the

middle and in the middle is almost the worst place because

that's just like people may or may not consider you.

And maybe if you're on deal or you're willing to lower

your price,

like always trying to convince people to buy you versus having

people specifically seek you out.

Totally agree.

And you're getting into a really heavy topic I believe,

and in a really important topic,

right from the start.

And that is,

don't always be defining yourself by price,

right. Because it's so easy to do.

And you think about it,

like the first thing that we think of when we're buying

many times until you really have zoned into the brand is

always, well,

how much does it cost?

I mean,

you and I were talking in the pre-chat about Starbucks fellow

Starbucks lovers.

I'm committed to that brand regardless of what the price is,

because I love what they stand for.

I love their product,

obviously, et cetera.

So am I thrilled when they increase their prices?

No. Am I still going to be buying from them?

Yes. They have legitimately lived into this differentiated brand,

right. From the very beginning of creating this sort of like

third home,

where there was a place that you could go that wasn't

work, that wasn't home,

that you had this new sort of community,

right. You were buying into that,

not just into the specific coffee or tea that you were

getting and yeah.

Having the language that goes along with it,

you actually had to speak a language of how you order

right here.

Like all of that makes you feel like you're part of,

kind of this club.

And then as they would go on and do bigger and

better things,

and whether it was educating their employees with college or whatever

it was,

it just gives you more reason to love this brand and

tell other people about it and bring them into the fold.

Even if they weren't one of the early adopters.

And that to me is the magic of a really strong

brand. That is the goal.

Right. And that drives back to your point about changing people's

minds because they're not thinking coffee anymore.

They're thinking the experience,

Right. I'm not there for my team.

I mean,

I'm there for my team,

but that's not why I'm there.

I can make my own tea.

Right, exactly.

I mean,

Apple's another brand that everybody knows,

same thing.

You either are an apple loyalist or you aren't,

people go both ways with apple.

Right. But when you are,

gosh, when a new phone comes out or a new product,

like when the iWatches came out,

I mean,

people are just going to run to the brand and get

it right away With them.

Right. They build up a whole ecosystem.

So you may or may not have a desktop,

a laptop,

right? Like that's probably the least of things that people have

the most up when it comes to apple,

but that is how they started.

Yeah. It's a good point.

We're going to get back to,

I think the conversation about how you start,

but continuing and sticking with this idea of price.

It can also go the other way,

because look at Walmart,

very successful and their pricing strategy is the whole other end

and their brand connects to lower price.

So it's not just always higher price.

No. W as we started in the beginning,

you can own one end or the other of the brand.

But when you're in the middle,

like when you're sort of just in the throw with everyone

else, that is to me,

the most dangerous place to be,

you're constantly struggling for survival.

And just to be like,

take a little bit of market share from someone else.

And that that's really a tough sell and I don't understand

why more people don't take it.

Well, I'm going to do the right.

Everyone's afraid of change.

Everyone's afraid to differentiate,

but you know why more people don't actually live into it

because the rewards are clear.

And either your differentiation that you choose will be like,

oh, that was a really bad idea.

You know what,

let me try something else or you'll go,

wow, this is really working.

But what you won't be is in the same position of

kind of treading that water in the middle,

which is just it's exhausting and it's expensive.

Yeah. I think I know why people don't do it.

At least for my community.

In my perspective is they haven't really,

really taken to heart.

What we're talking about here.

That it's the brand and it connects with what you represent

and it's about your product.

Yes. And that's really hard for handmade creators because their heart

is in what they've made,

but it's more than just your product.

I think with your audience too.

Like sometimes people feel like,

oh, I don't want to be egotistical.

Right. I don't want this to be all about me.

It's about my art or my creations or whatever it is

that I'm making.

And you don't have to be egotistical to have your brand

come through.

That can be an element or not an element of how

you portray yourself,

but differentiating yourself.

It's hard to do.

Right. I think that's one of the hardest things,

but if it's a company and you've got a bunch of

people working on or you're hiring an agency like mine,

that gives you all kinds of clarity when it's just you

or you and a couple people,

it can be difficult to really see the forest for the

trees. Plus you're probably really busy creating things all day long.

Right? Well,

and I want to stick under this headline of price for

a minute and just keep it all together in this conversation.

I think another thing that will happen is if someone is

out showing at a craft show and let's say they make

handmade soaps,

and there's another person who's making handmade soaps.

What we've would view as that the shopper is doing is

price shopping.

Oh, well,

there's look nice.

And theirs are $6 a bar,

but so-and-so's over.

There are only four 50 a bar.

I'm going to buy those.

That's what we perceive the shopper doing.

And it actually might play out in real life until you've

created a personal brand until you've actually communicated to people why

you're different,

why you're better,

why you deserve quote unquote,

the increased price,

the variants,

Right? I mean,

if somebody said to you,

Hey Sue,

you can have this cup of coffee for a dollar or

$4. So obviously you're going to pick the dollar,

right? Like there's a reason Starbucks has commanded this price and

this loyalty because they've created something around it and they've communicated

and they built it up over the years and that's like

big scale.

But certainly that can be done on a small scale,

but to make a big difference.

So that you're right.

When someone is going from place to place and looking and

saying, oh,

this one's four 50.

Why should I get that?

If they come to your table and they see your soaps

and they hear your story,

and it's very obvious to them,

what is so special about it?

They may never get to that other table.

True. And they make a personal connection with you and they

like you and they want to support you all of those

reasons. But as you're starting out again,

how long does it take to get into that zone where

you become known or you're seeing the fact that,

yeah, I might be losing sales to some other people because

of price.

But what I'm getting in terms of sales are such loyal

customers and such supportive,

repeat business referrals and all of that.

It's okay.

I think it depends on how compelling your brand is.

Like, what is your differentiation?

What is the quality that you're putting forth in the experience

that people are getting and going all in on that can

be costly,

right? It can take time and ironing it out.

And you have to definitely look at what are the benefits,

how do I need to raise my prices as appropriate or

not? What are you affiliating yourself with?

Is there something that you do that others don't do in

your space?

Maybe you have a big charitable component of what you do.

Like that might be important,

like trying to figure out like there's so many things to

figure out and the way I always look at it,

when I ask brands is what are you?

And R is my acronym for a R E how are

you authentically differentiating yourself?

The R is how is that relevant to your target market?

And then the E is,

how can you execute on that?

And that's a very simple thing to think about what are

we, what are you to come up with?

What the right answer could be,

right? Because you could have this huge,

I think this is very important and very differentiated because everything

I do saves one termite,

well maybe nobody cares about termites.

Maybe my audience doesn't care about termites.

Maybe I'm selling woods men who are like,

I really don't want termites.

Right. So you have to think,

and of course that's ridiculous,

right? But you have to think about what is it that

is authentically different about me and my brand that is relevant

to the audience that I'm looking to engage with,

or maybe relevant to a different audience.

Maybe I should be looking at a different audience.

Right. And then how can I execute on it?

And one of the best ways to find the cause again,

it's hard to think about that for yourself.

But if you think about the sales that you've made,

when are those aha moments,

when do people light up and go,

oh yes,

I have to have this.

When you kind of like,

look at that and drill into those moments that oftentimes will

unlock what it is.

That's special about you and relevant to your audience.

Yeah. The care about the things that people really,

really target in on your right.

Because it might be something totally different than what you were

thinking Really about.

I don't know,

luxurious things from France.

Right. And people didn't realize that just because that happens to

be part of what you use ingredients from.

I don't know,

but it's very surprising what your focus can actually be when

it might not be the product itself.

Yes. I agree.

All right.

I'm going to take another take on this.

I love the hour,

by the way.

It's so perfect.

As you talk about authentic,

it also has to be true to yourself too.

So if it's authentic,

if it's certain ingredients that you use for your product,

a certain cause that you're supporting for a very personal reason.

And I hesitated there just for a second,

because you know how personal is a whole nother conversation,

right? But you don't just attach with a cause because you

think your brand should attach with a cause it needs to

be authentic or other things.

And tell me what you think about this.

We're going through the RS.

Okay. Authentic.

I talk about differentiating and defining your brand in a personal

way through what I call unique,

special powers.

So unique,

special powers could be how your product's made.

It could be.

I'll just jump to the chase here of my point,

who you are as a person,

like things that you like,

because you're the maker and you're being a maker.

Anyone who's a maker,

that's a unique,

special power unto themselves because it's them.

So I will talk for myself specifically.

I love snowflakes.

I love the color yellow people.

Like think I'm insane when a blizzard is coming to Chicago,

because they're like,

Sue, you must be so happy.

That's part of my brand.

It has nothing to do with any of the things that

I sell,

but it triggers an idea.

And they're like,

oh my gosh,

snow SU.

Yeah. So those are authentic to me as a person also,

that is then part of the brand too.

Wouldn't you say Denise?

I would say so knowing that that's very important to you,

I would also try to make it connect to the bigger

portion of the rent.

Like, so why do I have a yellow snowflake as my

logo? It's because of these things and like making that connection,

I think in making it relevant to the audience would make

that even stronger.

All Right.

Cause I'm trying help other people start thinking about how they're

authentic. Here's another example.

It kind of goes to being relevant as well.

But think of the card company,

papaya, Iris,

you know how they have the little gold hummingbird sticker in

each of their cards.

And then there's a saying that goes along with it.

And It has to do with giving and being in life

together and sharing sentimental statements back and forth and all of

that. It aligns with their brand.

So that's being authentic too.

Of course it's a bigger brand here,

but then also relevant because people who are giving cards are

sending wishes of some sort.

Absolutely. And even thinking back to like kind of the yellow

and the snowflake,

there is a technique.

I don't know if you've heard of it or not called

micro weirding because right.

Like not all brands are born completely differentiated.

So if you're like,

okay, I make this and lots of other people make this,

how can I be different?

I don't know.

My differentiation is you can have something that you just go

all in on.

That is just really different.

And unexpected.

For years,

there used to be a tea.

I don't even know that exists anymore called red rose tea.

And you would buy it in the grocery store was box

of tea.

And inside the box of tea,

there would be a little like carved stone,

figurine, a little animal,

and people would buy that tea to collect those animals.

They would have all different red rose animals that have them

on their kitchen counter or window cell or whatever,

nothing to do with tea.

I don't even know why those were in there,

but people love them.

So it was just something different associated with them.

So if everything you sold had like a little yellow snowflake

covered chocolate or something,

you know,

like people go like,

oh, that goes with that's the yellows.

And I was like,

chocolate. The relevancy can be anything you want it to be.

As long as you have consistency,

people start connecting it with you.

But I love micro weirding.

It's such a great technique.

I've never heard of that before that there was actually a

term to it,

micro weirding and weirding.

Like I would say the word,

like if I'm going to Google Michael weirding,

it's going to come up that way.

Yeah. And this for our listeners could be a game changer.

The conversation that we've just had in terms of really defining

yourself on what your price should look like,

and then creating something attached to your brand,

in addition to your product,

linked to your product in some way,

or your brand that's authentic and then relevant.

And it doesn't have to exactly match.

In fact,

I'm almost going to suggest that if it doesn't match it

even better,

because then it's very different.

Yeah. Just something really surprising and unexpected,

but delightful,

you know,

people go,

oh, I like that.

And then like every time they get that,

they know I'm going to have this with it.

Like they used to be a wine that there,

I think it still exists called.

It's like a cheap white wine,

I think.

But it had shirts at cots.

It's a black cat in German had a little like black

cat that was like a tassel attached to the bottle and

kind of weird,

right. Because people give them their kids.

And I don't know if that's appropriate.

I don't even know if they do that anymore.

It's from a long time we would have those hanging around

the house.

And I was a kid.

I loved that little charm.

And you know,

my mother,

when she was going to buy wine for entertaining would buy

that bottle.

She'd know I'd get something out of two.

So there's so many ways that you can connect that aren't

necessarily obvious,

but that can be differentiating and meaningful for your sales.

Yes, Absolutely.

I'm also,

it's coming to mind,

to me.

McDonald's happy meals.

Yes. Dale pond is the one who created that.

And I had the good fortune of working with him and

getting into his mind about that and look still today,

like the toys and all of that.

And I remember when they first came out,

I mean,

even adults would buy the happy meals because they had to

get the toy that their child was wanting,

that every other kid had that their child out,

it was like obsessive Great name too,

like psychologically,

right? Here's your happy meal,

which brings to mind when you decide what your differentiation is

going to be,

that the E part of what are you executable like an

executable differentiation thinking about every touch point you can make that

happen at.

Right. So going back to our favorite,

right. To Starbucks,

even the names of their sizes are different.

Right? So whatever your branding is,

you can bring it into,

it gets like your size is going to be light dusting

to blizzard size,

right? Like anything that goes with snowflake for you,

you can have fun things like that.

That really unite the brand experience.

So really naming whatever the branding experience is calling a name

to it.

Brand Brand.

Yeah. Oh,

this is so good.

So now let's talk even more about executing because none of

this is any good.

If you're not going to tell people about it.

No, that's true.

And even if it just exists in your head,

but you can't really do it,

then that's not a good differentiation for you.

Right. If you can't really do it or you can't put

a voice to it,

you know,

like I find a lot of people have challenges when you

even ask,

well, what do you do?

What do you make?

Or what is your business?

People are like,

you know,

and they live it every single day,

but they can't put words to it.

So I think that's really important too.

Particularly as we start talking about executing Well,

yeah. And figuring out like that very quick snapshot,

right? Like for me,

I help brands that aren't as well known or well loved

as they should be,

become what they should be.

Right. Like that's very specific for me.

And that means like I'm not going to work with a

brand that isn't willing to do what it takes to be

a better brand.

Right? Like that's just a waste of their time and a

waste of my time.

But I have a very clear goal for who I work

with and that goal appeals to brands that want to be

better. So I think thinking that through for your makers of

like, what is it that you want to put out there?

It's again,

so easy to,

well, I can do this,

I can do this.

I can do this.

But what ties all of that together?

What is it that makes the things that you make special?

I think that's the key.

Yes. Or you pick a certain product and then you zone

into that and make that your thing too.

There's a couple of different ways to do it.

When you're talking about executing specifically,

what actions do we need to take?

Well with executing,

there's the visual,

right? Everyone thinks what's branding.

Right. You know,

what is your brand look like?

How do you market?

And that is true.

And that's all important,

but what is the entire experience like when they are presented

with the opportunity to buy,

what are they experiencing?

Every single touch point when they do buy,

what do they get?

If it's something that you're sending,

is there something special in the box that kind of tells

more of the story and brings them more into the relationship

versus just,

Hey, I got a cool soap.

What is it that you can do beyond just product sale

next. Exactly.

And I say it that way,

because that's another thing that I try to get through to

everybody is you're not going to make progress.

If you just say,

here's my soap,

here's the price,

buy it.

Right. And it's not that people don't love your soaps.

But if people are just to expand on this first,

just a second,

if people love your soaps and know you're there,

they don't need to continue following your Instagram account because they

know you're just showing all the soaps.

And when they're ready for soap,

they'll come and find you.

But then you're not getting a chance to develop the experience

of knowing you as a maker of learning what your authentic

branding niches are.

If you will.

I'm not sure exactly how to say that.

Right? The micro weirding,

maybe, you know,

you don't get a chance to tell your story.

So actually,

if everyone can think about it this way,

it opens up a world of content opportunity.

When that is always a challenge,

you know,

what do I post on social media?

Well, I'm going to post my product price again.

No, no,

no. There's so much more.

You can be posting And there is so much content out

there, right?

So it's really not about like how much more content can

I create is what's the clarity of content that I want

to put out there.

Like, I think that all drills back to look every brand,

if they had their druthers,

they'd be differentiated,

but few do what it takes to actually do it.

So just by doing it,

by making it like you're by default becoming more different,

that gives you a competitive advantage because going back to,

so whoever makes,

so I hope that you are enjoying this and I do

love a good soap.

I definitely like my personal experience.

I will go and I'll be,

you know,

at a place where there's a cool,

fair going on or something.

Okay. Look at this.

The sofa's awesome.

And then I'll buy it and I love it.

And I'll never buy from them again because I don't know

how, and I don't know who they are.

I'm just like,

oh, I got this cool soap at the fair.

It's not like,

oh, I got this cool yellow snowflake soap.

And did you know that they support for polar bears?

And I signed up because of this.

And now I'm getting more information.

Like any of that,

like that doesn't happen.

Like almost ever when I go to these,

Well, hopefully we're changing that because it's such an opportunity lost,

like my heart just sinks.

When I hear a story like that,

you've become a customer and the person who's made those soaps,

doesn't now have your email.

That is such a huge opportunity lost.

And it doesn't serve you either.

Cause like you said,

how could you ever buy from them?

Again? People are reason to give you the email.

Right? Nobody wants to give their email out.

Nobody wants more emails or to be like,

so what's the reason,

right? Think about that.

Like, oh yeah,

we have our,

whatever comes out exclusively for our customers first,

can we tell you about this or whatever it is,

but really thinking through what is the value that you're offering.

So you can get that valuable connection.

Exactly. Couldn't agree with you more there for sure.

Okay. Still talking about executing,

I'm thinking of the different areas.

Can you have more than one area of authenticity or should

you really be just focusing on one?

I wanted to pause this discussion for a second to let

you know that I recognize you may be feeling overwhelmed right

now. I mean,

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Okay. Let's get back to the show.

Now you can have pillars of authenticity,

but I think that you can only really have one thing

that people will remember you for.

Right? You can have pillars underneath that.

What is the main thing like Nike,

just do it.

Like we all know that we know Volvo makes safe cars.

They've all kinds of different,

cool, sporty cars,

family, cars,

whatever, you know,

electric cars,

but we know they make safe cars and that to own

some kind of positioning like that is so meaningful,

right? If I don't want to save card who doesn't want

to save car,

I'm not going to look at Volvo.

Right? And by driving a Volvo,

you're also making a statement to the world of who you

are and what's important to you Exactly.

Right. And that is a real big honor,

right? As a brand,

if people are purchasing from you,

because what you put out there makes them feel proud.

Like when you walk around with your Starbucks cup,

right, it's saying something about you.

If you can get to that point with your customers.

And I really think actually smaller,

especially makers,

it's such a personal thing,

enormous opportunity.

Right? We as human beings,

especially after the pandemic,

we know how small businesses have been hit.

We want to have a personal connection with the person behind

the brand.

So when we have that opportunity,

when we know I can support you versus buying from Amazon,

I'd much rather do that and nothing against Amazon,

but like,

I don't know the people there,

you know,

I know when I buy something handmade,

crafted, and I know that I'm supporting someone that's important to

me And people are willing to pay more for that too.

So you don't have to match Amazon prices.

No, not at all.

And I think there's even a little bit of a pride

that comes with that as a consumer,

I go,

yeah, that's right.

I spent more on this.

I didn't go to Amazon.

And I hear people talk about it all the time.

Yeah. Anti Amazon,

Amazon is great for many things,

but there are other things that we just need to be

doing differently.

I think everything is shifting right now in terms of our

purchasing behaviors.

Part of it,

it was happening before the pandemic,

but certainly through the pandemic.

And now afterwards we're still shuffling out.

But I do see,

and the studies are showing that handmade is becoming more significant.

People are attracted to handmade more.

They're willing to pay more.

So we're all in a great position to take advantage of

this. And what you're sharing with us today is how we

can really play on this opportunity and it's opportunity for us.

But it's also a service that we're giving to our customers

because our products that are handmade probably have better ingredients versus

things that are made overseas.

That is a generalization.

I know that I would say,

I think that most people agree with that.

Like that's a perception whether or not it's reality.

I think people do agree with that.

One thing I would say also like when you're trying to

figure out,

okay, well,

how can I differentiate?

Look at the unmet needs.

Right. Okay.

What is one of the reasons people might buy from Amazon

instead of you all because prime,

cause I can have it tomorrow.

Cause I forgot that I need is my sister's birthday,

which I would never forget,

but I forgot it's her birthday.

Right? November 5th,

never forget.

So, but if I have a maker that I love buying

things from and they asked me,

okay, you know,

a few questions and they can prompt me with things in

advance so that I'm not doing the last minute scramble.

Like what are the big reasons people end up buying from

someone else instead of you,

especially as someone that is Amazon,

you can definitely compete with in terms of quality.

If you can crack that code,

you have a real opportunity that can be part of your

brand. We're like the psychic brand.

We get you to buy things before you even realize you

need them.

You don't have to have last minute scramble or whatever it

is. That's an important service.

Absolutely. And right now with supply chain in arms,

again, a huge opportunity for handmade.

One of the things you talk about Denise is having a

new logo.

Doesn't equal having a new brand.

And I'd love to talk about this a little bit because

I think we've gotten some brain circling about,

gosh, I want to re-look at my brand.

So this conversation will be very relevant to people who are

looking at making a change.

So what do you have to say about this new logo

does not equal new brand?

Yeah. A logo is not a brand.

I will go back to Nike here.

Right? Is the swoosh the most amazing thing ever created as

a logo?

It's not,

it's what they had imbued it with.

Right? It's the experience of graded that that represents,

like if you make the brand experience,

the brand more meaningful,

I don't want to say your logo doesn't matter.

I mean,

logos certainly can matter and you want it to be appropriate

and memorable and all of those things,

but just creating a new logo,

isn't going to do anything to transform your business.

Okay, Perfect.

So again,

it still goes back to everything that we were talking about

before defining what's authentic for you,

making sure that it's relevant,

that it's something your buyers are actually going to resonate with.

And you can find that out by looking at what people

are reaching for,

what people are talking about.

You can even go back into your sales and see what

people are buying to help give you clues as to whether

you're on the right track or not also defining where you

stand on the price spectrum and staying solid with that.

I would say for some time period too,

what do you say about that?

Denise is like anything that you're testing,

don't do it for a week.

Right? Give it a chance.

I mean,

unless you see it's like a tremendous failure right away.

Okay. But yes,

I think these are business decisions,

right? You have to look at what can I realistically,

what can I not go below in order to make a

profit? Because you're not looking just to make things for other

people, you're looking to make a profit,

right? So what's the very lowest you can go and be

comfortable with and don't ever go lower than that.

But then what is it worth,

really looking at what something is worth and pricing based on

that. And hopefully there's a big Delta between like your break

even and what you really can sell something for.

And if not looking at how you can make that Delta

for you and brand is definitely a driver of it commodity

versus a brand.

If you don't have a brand,

you are just a commodity.

Yup. It goes back to buying Starbucks coffee or a tea.

It does,

you know,

there's a lot of money to be had when you position

your brand properly.

And I understand it's scary,

right. Especially if you're on your own and you're doing this

yourself or a couple people and you really do,

it's tempting to be very kind of defensively selling.

Like I just need to get the sale.

And I understand there are realities that people have to meet

in order to survive.

But when you can think beyond that,

when you've gotten to a point where you can go,

okay, I have something here,

how can I make this better?

I think that's really your opportunity.

Or if you can do it from the very beginning,

and if you're a very fortunate go,

I'm going to have a handmade business here and I'm going

to set myself up as well.

That's awesome.

But it's unusual that it starts that way.

Yeah. I think the closer you can be to the price

position you want in the beginning makes sense.

And yes,

the Delta,

because you want to be able to have some room in

there. Obviously you need money to be able to grow your

business. You know,

it's not just about the product,

your production time,

there's office expenses,

all the overhead stuff.

Plus you want a little bit in there.

If you want to do any promotions,

if you're not priced properly there.

So I'm a big advocate for deciding what your price is

going to look like and working towards it for at least

a certain amount of time before you would make any changes.

And maybe you even have,

you know,

we're makers.

So you can have different size products that where your cost

of materials is less.

So they could be priced less.

We can do a little testing,

do some research before you just decide randomly things.

Right? Right.

So let's give everybody three.

They've heard the whole conversation and we've kind of just been

chatting back and forth.

Denise covering a bunch of topics.

All of them really,

really potent topics for branding.

But if someone were going back to our soap maker,

again, our sweet little soap maker,

she's never done this.

She's made soaps.

She's gone to shows her prices are set,

but there's no real rhyme or reason.

There's really no branding.

As we've talked about it.

Now, what would be,

someone's very first steps to getting this all in sync in

the way where it can be powerful and help them grow

their business.

Really, I would start with the,

what are you I would drill down and say,

I'm going to analyze these three areas,

right? What is authentic about me?

That's relevant to my audience that I can execute on.

I would ask people,

I would ask my best customers really sit down with a

conversation. They want to help you.

Your best customers want to help you.

And even the people that haven't bought from you may want

to help you to tell you why they didn't buy,

which is also important to know.

I would really dig around those three things.

Cause it's like everything else stems from that.

Okay. If this is what's important,

if, if the lowest price is important,

is that going to be something I can do?

Maybe not.

Right. But if making sure that there's aloe and every single

soap and I'm going to be the aloe soap person and

I have these really unusual things around the world,

that's why people buy me.

Okay. I know that's important that I need to make sure

that's part of my messaging and my portfolio of what I'm

putting out there.

Okay. Wonderful.

And then talking about it regularly,

keeping it top of mind,

maybe even writing it out on your computer or somewhere where

you're going to see it all the time.

Because if you don't continue talking about it multiple times,

it's never going to really sink in you.

Can't just talk about it.

One, Because that is really important,

right? To become whatever you're going to be specialized.

What, what your brand is,

you need to be a thought leader in that space,

right? So they'll make sure everything you're putting out,

like, know everything about it.

As much as you can put information out there,

educate people,

give them those little kind of tidbits of information that make

them feel smarter about what you do.

They give them a talking point to tell other people,

this is why I bought this oboe.

You know,

I got you the soap as a president or the one

you're using in my powder room is this.

And it does this for you versus just being a soap,

like make yourself more than a soap,

make yourself more than a coffee.

If you're Bomba socks,

my very favorite product of all time,

make yourself more than SOC,

right? Like these are coffee socks.

They're not things that are super differentiated unless you put the

power behind it.

And to me,

any kind of handcrafted world already has something special.

It's just really like articulating what that is and making sure

you hone in on it rather than spreading yourself so thin

that you are making everything instead of a brand for yourself.

Absolutely. And I'm going to suggest,

we're talking about aloe and also socks.

Google points about your product.

Like I just learned recently,

Denise, that if you wear socks,

you know how the heavy blankets are a big thing right

now. And they do something for you health wise,

so do wearing socks to bed and it doesn't have to

do with keeping your feet soft.

It has to do with your quality of sleep who knew.

And I can't give you all the details.

I just know that point.

So that would be something cool for somebody who makes socks

to be able to say,

by the way,

did you know one of the values of socks is now

they might not have known that before,

but Google things that might be relevant to your product and

you might come up with these cool facts that then you

can be talking about Your product.

You might say an end.

That's why I make these special sleep socks.

You don't want to wear this all day,

Right? Exactly.

Oh, that's good.

Denise. That's really good.

Are you listening for all of us?

Don't listen,

let the hand makers make it.

Yeah. Well aloe,

same thing.

Like what are the health benefits of aloe?

What are the recent stories or did you know that aloe

comes from like,

who knows what it would be,

but Google,

it finds some interesting points.

It doesn't have to be all your knowledge at first because

I think there'll be some people sitting out there saying,

well, I don't know.

I have no clue.

I know how to make my product.

And it's awesome.

But I don't know any of this stuff.

You don't have to be the creator of the information.

You can be the spreader of the qualities.

That's right.

I agree with that.

Yeah. Ooh.

I love that.

Very, very,

very good.

Okay. One final question that comes to mind.

I try to put myself in our listeners head of like

what the objections would be that would prevent them from moving

forward on what we've talked about.

That could,

like I said before,

be such a good,

solid business growth strategy for our business.

And that is what do you say about again,

I'm going to stick with our soap maker.

I'm just a small handmade business product provider.

And there are these big brands out there that are spending

millions of dollars for their strategy.

I can not compete with them.

Why should I even try?

Well, I mean,

without trying,

right, you're just dooming yourself,

but you can,

right. We know that you can,

there are other people out there being successful in this world,

doing that,

talking to some of those people,

the ones that aren't directly competitive with you is always a

great thing.

Again, people want to help people.

I always talk to people who are interested in learning about

what they're starting an agency or anything else that I can

do to help them.

Because I think we just kind of feel like it's our

job to be building on our shoulders.

But I do think that it's not really a legitimate argument.

That just because someone else that there is doing a great,

I don't have a chance.

It's not true.

You have to do it differently.

Maybe you're not going to have big TV commercials,

super bowl saying that you make soap,

but then again,

that's probably not appropriate for you anyway,

and it's not appropriate to your audience.

It all comes back to what is it?

That's special about you?

How can you communicate differently?

It does take being creative,

but that's the awesome thing about your audience.

We're talking about some of the most creative people on the

planet, as long as there are some guard rails,

because again,

creativity without kind of guardrails can be really,

really difficult to reign in.

But with kind of the,

what are you guardrails the authentic to you relevant to your

audience executable that gives you the real path that to pull

in all the information and go,

okay, how do I do this?

And you can,

there's no question.

You can,

other people are doing it.

Why shouldn't you?

I like that rather than someone else did it.

Why should I love it?

Yeah. I agree with you.

And I think the other thing as a small business is

we don't need millions of customers to be successful with our

business goals,

right? It's not really even comparing apples to apples,

but I was curious as to what you would say about

this. We all continue to need the dog about this topic

and just continue to take it to heart that we don't

need to be matching anybody else we need to be doing

what's right for ourselves.

And I would even add into that.

The world is becoming much more savvy about marketing right at

that personal brand.

So not doing it actually puts you further behind,

like it doesn't even keep you on a level playing field.

You're right.

Yeah. I agree with that.

A hundred percent.

All right.

This has been absolutely gold in terms of the information that

you've provided in our conversation.

I heard you mentioned,

I believe that with your agency,

you help people define what their brand messaging should be.

Zero in and define it.

Is that,

and talk a little bit about more what the S3 agency

does. Thank you.

Yeah. So we really are like to us working with a

brand, the biggest way we can make a difference is to

make sure that brand has its differentiated positioning figured out and

then do our marketing.

On top of that,

we have 20 years of honing this experience.

We know how to take people through the process of differentiating

the brand.

And then we know that when we do marketing with that

clear alignment of what is different,

that our results are better.

There's no question.

We're not guessing.

We're not wondering,

gee, will this message be working?

Is this the right thing?

But we know what to put out there.

And it also is a great filter for us and for

our clients to go,

Hmm, should we try advertising that way or doing some light

little, does that fit with our differentiated brand positioning?

No, the,

no, the answer's no,

we shouldn't do it.

That's like very clarifying having that alignment,

that clarity,

that is what we provide and then the things that go

with it.

So whatever's right for the client,

whether it's advertising digital advertising,

broadcast, advertising,

marketing, social media website,

I mean,

you name it like we are a full service agencies.

We pull that whole picture together and I know that can

sound daunting to your audience.

You don't have to be doing all those things.

The big thing is figuring out your brand,

do the things that are meaningful for you.

It doesn't have to be incredibly overwhelming,

just like bite-size it and make progress towards it.

It doesn't have to be an overnight success.

And do you have a sweet spot for accepting clients?

We work in a few different verticals.

So we do a lot of consumer packaged goods.

We do a lot of automotive.

We do a lot of health care and then other clients,

when we feel the brand is right for us,

if we feel like we can really make a difference for

them and they want to actually go through the differentiation,

then that's the most important criteria for us.

Okay, Perfect.

And if people want to know more about you and the

agency, where would you send them?

Please just go to our website,

which is S three.agency.

So letter S like Sam,

the number three.agency,

Denise, this has been a fabulous conversation.

I am thrilled that we're presenting this information specifically to our

listeners, because I think if they take this to heart and

really spend a little bit of time,

follow the AR elements,

this could really be a game changer.

And you brought that to us.

So for that,

I am so indebted,

Denise, thank you so much for being on the show.

Thank you so much for having me,

Sue. This has been an awesome conversation.

I wish you could see me because you'd see him smiling

from ear to ear.

And anytime you want to talk,

I'm available.

Wonderful. Thanks again,

Denise. It's time to make your company micro weird.

I encourage you to follow Denise's our method to get you

moving in this direction.

And one more thing I want to emphasize from our talk

today. Remember the discussion about pricing that you can't be all

over the board,

or even sit in the middle with your product prices.

If you are,

your job is so much harder,

something to rethink.

As you move forward into the new year up next week,

I'm bringing you a new online selling opportunity.

If you haven't narrowed in on a product to sell yet,

or if you're creative,

but not sure that you want all that production involved with

a handmade product business.

This show will be for you.

Thanks so much for spending time with me today.

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