232 – Navigating Through a Difficult Conversation with Anna Osborn of Life Unscripted Counseling

Gift biz unwrapped,

episode 232 if you're in the eye,

we evaluated to see whether or not it's a legitimate threat

and then we give it a high five and keep walking

Attention. Gifters,

bakers, crafters,

and makers pursuing your dream can be fun.

Whether you have an established business or looking to start one

now you are in the right place.

This is gift to biz on rapt helping you turn your

skill into a flourishing business.

Join us for an episode packed full of invaluable guidance,

resources, and the support you need to grow your gift biz.

Here is your host gift biz gal,

Sue moon Heights.

Hi there,

it's Sue.

And can I just say you are in for a special

treat today.

This is a powerful episode that can guide how you communicate

with others moving forward.

I'm being dramatic on purpose because I believe it to be

just that important.

But before we get into this though,

a quick message to let you know that there's still a

little bit of time to sign up for my masterclass.

It's already in progress,

but if you're listening to this show right as it's been

released, you can still sign up for one of the two

final classes that are happening this week.

The program is completely free and it's specifically for those of

you in the beginning stages of your business development or if

you're just now considering a business from your handmade products.

When you attend this online class,

you'll learn the single biggest thing people miss when they start

their business.

Four critical elements to include when you're pricing your product,

how to attract customers and the secret to attracting loyal customers

who will buy from you again and again.

The exciting news is the category of handmade small business is

steadily growing as the big box stores are seeing declines.

We get into this too all in the masterclass.

To join us,

go to gift biz,

unwrapped.com forward slash masterclass and select one of the two dates

that are still available this week.

That's gift biz unwrapped.com

forward slash masterclass don't delay because the last class is this

Thursday. Now about today's show.

It's inevitable in life that there are going to be times

when you need to have a conversation with your spouse,

partner, or a friend about a serious topic.

It may be uncomfortable or challenging and you're just not sure

how it's going to be received.

Wouldn't it be great to have some structure around how to

handle these discussions and know what to do based on the

different types of reactions you might receive?

You may be in this place,

right thinking of telling your spouse that you want to open

your own business and what it will entail in terms of

an investment or possibly quitting your nine to five.

In this episode,

you're going to learn the four steps to manage the conversation

in the most respectful and caring way and what to do

next. Based on the three potential responses you'll receive,

you'll be able to apply this process to any important topic

that arises in your life.

I can't wait for you to hear all about it.

It is my pleasure to introduce you to a very special

person with a very special topic.

It's my pleasure to introduce you to Anna Osborne.

She's the owner of life unscripted counseling and host of the

her life unscripted podcast where she focuses on reconnecting couples and

inspiring individuals.

She helps couples and individuals to improve communication,

deepen intimacy,

and change negative patterns of disconnection in their love relationships and

also works with entrepreneurial woman to inspire and motivate them to

step fully into their voice and live their lives out loud.

She believes that your primary relationship can be your greatest tool

or greatest barrier to success.

Anna, welcome to the gift biz unwrapped podcast.

Thank you,

Sue. I'm so delighted to be here.

I am too,

and we're going to dive right in with my traditional introductory

question and that is to have you describe yourself as if

you were a motivational candle.

So if you were to pick a color and a quote

that created a candle,

that is totally you.

Anna, what would your motivational candle look like?

Yes. I'm so excited by this question.

I would be that really cool.

Emeril, the green is what the color I would be and

the quote would be sexually.

I got it from a John Maxwell book and it says,

how far can I go?

And that's honestly a question that I ask myself a lot

of times when I'm in that place of fear or overwhelm,

especially around home life or business growth and just asking this

question of how far can I go and using it to

really combat those self limiting beliefs and that kind of like

doubt monster some sometimes can really take over.

I love those words doubt monster because you always hear imposter

syndrome, right?

I never heard this before and when you said it,

what it brought to me right away was the thought that

we're in total control of how far we go.

We often think that other people put limits on us,

but I think it's ourselves who are limiting our own growth.

What do you think about that?

I totally agree.

Yeah. I mean other people definitely can project their stories on

to us and put limits on us,

but the limits that we put on ourselves are far greater,

more intense,

and they are just so warped in ways these ways that

we get in play small or keep ourselves small because we

let fear make decisions for us.

I tell my kids this all the time is that we

look fear in the eye.

We evaluated to see whether or not it's a legitimate threat

and then we give it a high five and keep walking.

There you go.

You like that?

I liked that a lot and I have to say I

think this is going to get to be a deep conversation,

Anna. As I start working with more and more people and

I'm guilty of it myself,

so I'm not preaching,

I'm agreeing and I'm actually putting myself in the circle with

everybody else.

We often think that our ability to progress is limited by

outside factors.

When I really think the biggest barrier we have sits right

inside ourself.

We have everything we need,

but we don't realize,

recognize or have the courage sometimes to access it.

Yeah, and I think That what really is hard to,

and cause I'm in that bucket too,

right, is what's really difficult is that when we realize that

we are the greatest ones that hold ourselves back,

the power of that,

that sometimes can be so overwhelming that we want to place

it on something that's external.

Because when we really recognize that our ability to step into

our voice,

step into our power to not fit the mold of somebody

else's story onto us,

that that can be so overwhelming that we want to go

back to playing small.

But once we are aware of our power,

you can't ever unknow that.

I think of it like,

I call it my hot dog analogy where essentially you can

enjoy a hot dog.

You can have one at a 4th of July barbecue or

kids' backyard barbecue,

things like that.

But once you read the ingredients of what's actually in a

hot dog,

you can still have one but you never enjoy it quite

the same because you kind of know what's in there.

And awareness is this the same way as once we know

something and that deep gut intuitive knowing way we can never

unknow it about ourselves.

And so when we see ourselves fully in our passion fully

in our creative,

fully in our power,

we can have a run from that or unknowing.

And I really do believe that the more we become comfortable

with that full version of ourselves,

the more we crave it.

We're overwhelmed by it,

but it's an exhilarating overwhelm and that is a process to

more into that and kind of tread these ideas of who

we thought we were supposed to be in a smaller way

and who people needed us to be in that smaller way.

Yes, I agree with you,

but I have to say I am one who doesn't really

want to know what's inside that hotdog because when I have

them, I want to love them.

Right. I'm with you a hundred percent don't show me the

ingredients. I'm just better not knowing.

Yes, I don't have hot dogs enough to worry,

but I really want to enjoy them when I do.

Yes, and I think also when you recognize this,

the more serious side,

when you get comfortable with this and you think that you

can be in total control of what's going to happen next

for you,

it's so empowering and so exciting when you really think of

the possibilities that do exist.

And we're going to get into all of this.

I know,

but before we do,

can you share with us a little bit about how you

decided that this is where you are going to place your

energies and your focus for your career?

Yeah. I,

I actually,

I was premed when I started my undergrad and I was

very much the science and the just the facts and I

took a random psychology class.

I was required to take it and I was at the

university of Arizona,

so it's five,

600 people in lecture halls and I'm just walking in with

my sophomore pissy attitude and I'm sitting in that class and

the very,

very, very back of the class and the professor started speaking

and all of a sudden it's like the whole world shrunk

down to just her and I having a conversation and she

was speaking a language that I thought everybody looked at the

world through this lens.

Like I thought that was just how people saw the world

through that interconnectedness and that relational component and being able to

see things in a million different shades of gray.

And I didn't realize that that wasn't something everybody experienced.

And I remember where I went home and I called my

parents and I said,

I'm changing my major to psychology.

And they said,

do you want to go to class number two?

Like go to day two and see?

And I said,

no. Like we literally had this soul to soul conversation even

though there was,

you know,

hundreds of people around us.

And it completely changed because the way I'd always seen the

world and these relational kind of interconnected pieces,

I didn't know that that was a thing that you could

study. I didn't know it was a thing that you could

do. And that really just put me on this track to

getting my undergrad in psychology and then my master's in psychology

and getting my license to be a licensed marriage and family

therapist. And I've now been practicing therapy for about 14 years

now. And I work at the very beginning of my work

with a lot of trauma survivors and that was really,

really intense,

powerful work and high burnout factor and realizing that I won't

make a ripple effect in my community and that if I

could work with relationships before they became unhealthy or if I

could work with relationships that had been modeled,

unhealthy stuff that could I help create a ripple effect to

my community to have a folks creating a different branch to

their family tree by really modeling just more connection,

more healthy communication,

more fun because it was safe enough to do so.

And that's where I've spent the last 10 years as a

couples therapist.

And as a business owner,

I've owned my own business for the last night and I

have a seven year old twins and I'm a wife of

11 years.

And so that complexity of building a business and growing a

business and being so passionate about it.

Okay. And then also wanting to show up in my marriage

and my kids is where I've just found so much enjoyment

out of just encouraging women to lean into their gifts.

And so that's what brought me to your podcast and what

brought me to reaching out and saying,

I want to get to know your audience more.

Yeah. There's a couple of things I want to say about

this. The first is it always amazes me how there can

be one single moment in time that literally changes everything.

And yours is a perfect example.

There was just one class that hit you right?

And that was it.

Yes. It's so cool when those things happen,

even though it was a totally different track.

So what did your parents think?

Were they cool with it or did they think you were

crazy? Oh,

they were totally good with it.

I'm the middle child of three girls and my dad always,

it doesn't sound unloving,

but he always says in the most loving way,

but you're the only person that can land in a pile

of, you know what?

Coming out smelling like roses.

So that is my personality is that I,

for better or for worse,

I tend to dive in and go,

okay, now how do I do this?

And so they knew that about me and I wasn't doing

the best in school school.

It was because I wasn't passionate about what I was doing.

I thought I wanted to help people in that realm.

But the way I've been able to connect with people through

the work of therapy has been just something that I light

up about.

And so I think saw that.

I'm sure.

I can only imagine after I hung up the phone,

you know,

three States away of the conversation they had,

she goes again,

a hundred percent a hundred percent that's probably what it was

like you said.

It was that perfect time where I could hear it.

And I think what was so powerful for me was I

went in with just this negative attitude thinking,

Oh, psychology.

Oh, I just had such a negative belief system.

We had seen a family therapist late in my high school

years, and the person was just ever three example of why

you shouldn't go to therapy.

I mean,

just bad that bad.

So I had such a negative idea in my head of

what those people do.

I mean,

just very 19 don't know anything,

but I thought I knew everything.

And so it was the exact perfect time to just burst

me open and go,

Oh my goodness,

yes. This is how I look at the world.

Like I can't believe that I could do something like this

and make a living and enjoy it and grow as a

person by doing it.

Yeah. Well,

I have to say that when you see things that are

being done wrong,

when you then look at the opposite,

it's even a better learning for you of what you should

be doing to do it the right way.

So possibly you having that experience negative on family therapy.

Luckily you kept your mind open for the future,

but then you saw this is exactly what is not going

to be happening in my practice.

Definitely. And it's really how I've built my practice is wanting

to say,

okay, like how even if I'm not the right fit for

somebody and they're reaching out,

how can I give them a warm hand off to somebody

who's a better fit?

Because you know,

working in your community for 14 years,

you know a lot of people that do different stuff than

you. And so that's something that has been always near and

dear to my heart that when somebody says,

Hey, we didn't have the right fit before,

I want to try and get them the right fit because

it is so hard to reach out for help.

I mean,

it's hard to ask our partners for help.

It's hard to ask our friends for help,

pick up the phone and ask a therapist for all of

them. There's so many messages that are connected to that that

are hopefully inaccurate,

but still they become great barriers.

Right? For sure.

Okay. So I'd like to take this conversation in two separate

paths. One is going to be relationships and the other will

be having a support system for your business.

So someone that you can go to to lean on in

those inevitable times when you need support.

This may be your significant other,

but not necessarily.

So let's go with number one first relationships.

And let's talk a little bit about communication with all the

various people who are significant in our lives.

Do you have any direction for us,

especially if someone is looking at entering into some conversations that

could be a little risky,

such as starting a business,

how do we ensure that our relationships are on a solid

foundation before we even enter into those types of conversations?

Well, yeah,

no, I think that's a great question because relationships thrive off

of stability,

whatever the version of stability is,

right? All of our homeostasis looks different,

but relationships thrive off of stability.

It's they thrive off of safety.

And yet when we are doing something new or growing a

dream, growing a passion,

that requires change.

And so those two stability and change are trying to exist

in the same system.

It can create a lot of angst,

a lot of worry,

a lot of confusion.

And so I think fundamentally we have to know that our

relationships thrive on that stability.

And if we're throwing in currents of change,

it's understandable that it's going to create some level of disruption

and to disruption.

Does it necessarily have a negative connotation?

Right? Disruption is just some waves that we've got to manage.

So I think that if you go in knowing that it's

going to create some waves,

we aren't as surprised by them.

We aren't as horrified or we don't use them as those

enter the,

see, I knew it,

right? It's like we see this one little indicator of disruption

and we go,

Oh, it's too hard.

I can't do it.

Right? We don't use those to validate our fear story.

So I think one is knowing that communication or that relationship

piece needs that stability.

And yet change kind of creates a little bit of waves.

So when we approach communication,

then we have to approach it knowing that we want to

get to the fear place to have the real conversation.

And what I mean is fear,

worry, overwhelm,

any of those just really icky feelings to have.

Those are the ones that are just very vulnerable and close

to us.

The ones that are a little bit farther removed,

we call them secondary emotions are more the ones that our

friends or our partner,

our support system might see.

Then we're overwhelmed.

Maybe we're a little agitated,

frustrated, irritable.

They're kind of more of the distancing emotions,

right? So we're approaching communication and we're in those distancing emotions

that your ability,

the frustration,

those sorts of things.

We just stay up there on the noise and we never

get to the heart of him overwhelmed.

I need some reassurance or Hey,

I can see that you're really worried about this.

I hear you.

Let's talk about it.

And so really the number one tip when it comes to

communication, especially when change is happening is the closer you can

get to more of those softer but our emotions and stay

out of the noise in terms of the frustration,

that irritation,

the more authentic conversation you're going to have and honestly more

of the forward moving conversation will take place.

Cause you're talking about,

you actually need to talk about,

Okay, so I understand you correctly.

We're talking about a solid relationship where they're not going to

seek information and support elsewhere.

When you're approaching a conversation with a relationship that's already solid,

obviously understanding that there's ups and downs with all relationships,

right? But this is a solid relationship and you're going to

be approaching a topic that could be really sensitive,

like maybe quitting your nine to five because you're thinking of

starting a business,

right? And let's just pretend it's me.

Let's say I am now talking to my husband and I'm

approaching this topic.

Hey honey,

guess what?

I've got news.

I am quitting my corporate job to start my own business.

And so what you're saying in situations like that is recognize

that you will probably be throwing the relationship,

not the long term stability of the relationship,

but the current relationship a little bit off kilter by that

announcement because you're messy with the safety and the stability of

the relationship.

Would that be fair to say?

Absolutely. Cause you're coming in,

you're enthusiastic.

I'm going to live my dream,

right. Goodbye to the corporate world and partner,

they may move into,

yes, that's amazing.

But usually our partner moves into a counterbalance move,

which is,

wait, what are you going to do?

Right? And so when we hear that a little bit of

doubt or that question is coming from them,

usually we can interpret that as they're not supportive or,

and then we move to a place of frustration because we

feel hurt.

Right? I came to you with this big old exciting thing.

You seemed a little bit but not so excited.

And so now I have maybe a little bit irritable or

my feelings are hurt.

And so that's when you usually move up into that part

of communication.

It isn't so productive.

Right? Because you're kind of in that the noise as I

call it versus you and a partner and you're saying,

yes, I'm so excited.

I'm sure that might be a big question marks for you.

How are you feeling?

Right? You move into more of that softer piece because they're

maybe lackluster response isn't because they don't support,

it's because they're scared they're going,

well wait a second.

What about our benefits?

Or, or how are we going to meet?

How are we gonna afford this?

Like they can move into all those fear based questions and

so the more that you can move in there and have

the conversation in that place,

much more productive because you're really hearing each other's questions and

their fear rather than interpreting that as doubt or unsupport and

those sorts of things.

Yeah. Cause I could see it spiral out of control.

Yeah, because you're so excited and you're presenting your idea and

it's probably just the overall concept because you don't have all

the detail behind the idea yet.

It's just an overall thought.

They may seem less supportive and now you're all upset because

what you were excited about,

it looks like you are going to be meeting with some

resistance when for you at that point you need a super

ton of support to get going.

Right. And if you don't talk more about it on that

deeper level,

like you're saying,

it can grow into this big smoke bomb.

I'm thinking of emotion and frustration and all that where that

never really needed to happen.

Absolutely. So this is actually leading to a question and I

have to keep talking or I'm going to forget it,

Anna, but is there a certain way to approach this or

a structure or steps we should follow?

Or what would you suggest to somebody who is anticipating that

they're going to be in some type of a situation like

this? I guess I'm thinking here about preparation.

Do you have any tips on how you prepare yourself to

enter into this conversation?

So you get the best result and you're being sympathetic to

the person who's going to be receiving your message?

Yes, absolutely.

So the first is you as the speaker right?

You as the one getting ready to lean into this passion

to lean into this creative space and grow a business is

you need to be clear of what you're needing from part.

Because the majority of people that I work with,

even in couples therapy,

that when they get a clear message from their partner what

they need,

they're so eager to meet that need because it's clear,

right? It's when we use these kind of vague words that

our partners tend to get that deer in the headlights and

go, Oh my goodness,

you're asking for something.

I don't know exactly what it is.

And so I'm either going to try this approach or I'm

going to do nothing cause I don't wanna make it worse.

So the number one thing is you've gotta be clear of

what you're needing from partner so that you can verbalize and

accurately ask for it.

So when you're starting a conversation of this nature,

when it's coming out of left field even,

could you or would it even make sense to say something

like, I have something really new to talk with you about

and I'm really interested in your thoughts and your opinion on

this, but I want you to hear me all the way

through before you say anything.

That way it gives you a little bit of space and

time to talk where you know you're not going to be

interrupted, but the person who's listening also realizes that they're going

to get time to respond and voice their thoughts.

A hundred percent yes,

because it's clearly knowing what you need and there's sometimes where

you go into communication with a partner and you're saying,

I need you to be supportive right now.

Even if this sounds crazy or the sounds like you've got

a million questions,

I need you just to have a smile on her face

and say yes,

and then once I get it all out and I feel

your support,

then we can dive into maybe some of the questions you

have of just being really,

really clear with what we need.

And so that really sets up the second piece.

That's beautiful.

Yeah. Right?

Because if we know what we're need usually,

not only are we more likely to get it,

but we feel so hurt.

And so seeing because we were clear with it and partner

was able to clearly meet it,

but it creates an expectation that occurs and that feels really,

really reassuring to the relational unit.

Got it.

Yeah. Super.

Okay, so that's the first piece,

right? That the first piece is knowing what we need.

But the second piece is,

it occurs after,

but it's actually almost simultaneous is that we have to invite

partner into the conversation.

Meaning if know what I need right now is you to

be my biggest cheerleader and put your doubts aside until I

get this all out and then we can discuss is that

I need to now invite you into that space.

Because what happens in just day to day communication is that

we've been running something over through her head for quite a

while and then we go to partner and say,

Hey, by the way,

and that completely is the first time they've heard this,

right? Or they've never heard it organized in this fashion.

So that's when we move into the invitation,

which is,

Hey, I want to talk to you about something.

A big idea I've got is now a good time for

you and I really need you to be open and supportive.

Is now a good time for you?

So that partner is now knowing what they're walking in to

and what the expectation of them is.

Because if a person walks through the door and we kind

of pounce and say,

I've got this thing to tell you,

you ready?

And partner's saying like,

well, no,

I'd like to put down my bag and put on some

comfy clothes or whatever it is,

right? Like we have to invite them into that space and

it's okay for the party partner to say,

you know what,

not right now can we do it in an hour?

But it needs to have that book end knowing that we're

going to follow up to it.

Because if you come to partner with all of this excitement

and say,

Hey, I've got this big idea that can we talk about

it now?

I really need you to be supportive.

And they say,

no, no,

it's not a good time.

And they just walk away.

That feels like rejection,

right? That feels like we came to them with this vulnerable

thing and we got rejected.

So that's really why that second step is so important.

We've got to know what we need,

but we've got an invite partnering in that space and if

partner says yes,

but in 20 minutes we've got to honor that because we're

setting an expectation and they need that space to kind of

wrap their head around,

okay, let me take some breaths,

let me move into that supportive place so that I can

be there in the way that my partner needs.

That is so brilliant because honestly,

I mean timing is all important,

right? The same message delivered at a time when someone's in

a position to receive it versus when someone is super stressed

just coming home with other things on their mind and just

exhausted it would be received in an entirely different way.

Yeah. We have a thing here in the office,

my assistant,

Lori and I that when we come in first thing in

the morning,

it's like,

let us sit down,

take our coat off,

put our stuff away,

wrap up a computer.

Maybe if we have to check an email or something like

that, but literally settle in before we start going over questions

that we have for each other or to do lists or

goals or that kind of thing versus bombarding each other.

The second we walk in the door with things that are

on our important to do list,

so similar type of thing.

I'm thinking.

Yes, absolutely.

Yeah. Okay,

so you have to know specifically in your mind exactly what

you're going to need from your partner and then you let

them know that you'd like to have a conversation and you

ask if this is a good time,

is that right?

Right. And then your rip cord,

right. That kind of third cord is to be able to

let partner have their response,

right? Or it's to let them have their feelings because think

of it,

let's say we had this podcast,

right? We've got this scheduled,

let's say three minutes before we're recording.

I send you a message and I say,

Hey Sue,

don't be upset,

but there's a class to the gym I didn't want to

miss. And so we need to reschedule the podcast.

Right? So that's not fair.

Right? You're allowed to be upset by that.

You're allowed to be disappointed like you had set the time

aside. I set the time aside and then I just disregard

it. So we need to let people have their feelings.

And could you be upset?

Absolutely. Could you be disappointed?

A hundred percent does that mean that I'm a disappointment?

No. No.

That doesn't mean my being as a discipline appointment did.

That was I being kind of inconsiderate.

Yeah, but that doesn't mean I am inconsiderate.

And so when we move into this conversation with a partner,

we're clear what we need.

We've invited them into this space.

They feel like they're willingly coming in because it's on their

terms. Also.

We can't then say,

Hey, I want to tell you this really big thing,

but you can't be worried or you can't have any questions

or you can't.

Like, we can't dictate that from them because that's their feelings.

That's their response.

They have the freedom to have whatever feelings are going to

come up A hundred percent we have a responsibility of not

taking that whatever feeling they have in terms of a way,

as a negative depiction of us.

Meaning if you respond back in this fictional email and you

say, thanks for letting me know,

I'm really disappointed,

right? I then don't need to take the meaning away of

well, she must hate me and I must really be a

disappointment and this means that you start rolling into this narrative

that doesn't exist.

And so really the third piece is let your partner have

their feelings and be really cautious of how you're interpreting those

feelings as meaning as belief systems.

Because there is a difference between how we feel and the

meaning we take away from things the difference.

Got it.

They are entitled to their feelings and you can't internalize their

reaction to be how they're feeling about you overall.

It's just how they're feeling about the situation you're presenting at

the time.

Yeah, definitely.

So, yeah,

that's the third piece is let them have their feelings and

just be really cautious about your own meaning that we take

away. Okay.

Can I ask you a question here?

Go ahead.

So I've been in conversation with people before who are already

anticipating that when they bring up an uncomfortable idea,

they're already anticipating that the reaction is going to be negative.

So do you think by them anticipating that they've set themselves

up to actually be in receipt of that reaction?

You see what I'm saying?

Growth at self fulfilling prophecy.

Yeah. Yes.

Self fulfilling prophecy versus particularly as they're listening to us now

and they go through these steps first,

they can kind of lead to their partner having a more

positive and comfortable reaction.

Because you've said what you need,

you're inviting them in.

You're going to be accepting of whatever reaction that they have.

So maybe you're not going to get that reaction that you

assumed initially would be so negative.

Yeah, absolutely.

And sometimes we can create almost a UTURN and communication.

Uh, you turn in communication.

That sounds interesting and we're going to hear more about that

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Uh, you turn in communication,

meaning you're having these conversations.

I would be curious if somebody says,

you know,

I think my partner's going to get really upset.

They don't like change or whatever the case may be.

I'd want to know the why.

Like why is that?

Are you assuming that would be the response?

Well, their dad had a really unstable job and their mom

was the primary caring provider and she was,

we barely were able to make ends meet.

And so you start getting to,

Oh, so you saying,

Hey, I'm going to leave the corporate world and start my

own business.

That really represents a lot of fear to them.

Right? So if they know the why going in,

then you can speak to that.

Meaning, Hey,

I want to talk to you about this big idea.

You've got a got,

there's some parts of it that might sound kind of scary

and overwhelming and that's okay,

but I want to share it with you so we can

kind of talk our way through it.

So you're almost creating this,

you turn by naming the why or naming the true trigger

feelings that could come up from partner so that when they

start feeling this feature or this overwhelmed that you anticipated,

and you've put that U-turn in there,

it almost prevents their mind from diving all the way there.

It almost plays a role of validating it,

right? Because you're saying,

I know this might be scary,

and then you're having the conversation and they're feeling scared.

They're usually able to go,

Oh, okay.

But they knew this was going to be very,

and we can still do it.

So sometimes you can actually create that U-turn for them by

knowing the why I around whatever assumption you have going into

this sort of conversation.

Oh my gosh,

that's so good.

And it also shows the person who's initiating the conversation that

they've taken into consideration what the reaction might be.

So there's a level of caring that's already established there.

Yeah, because our greatest need in our relationship is to be

seen and heard like that is like from cradle to grave,

right? This is like attachment theory in its purest form is

our greatest need is to be seen to be heard.

We just transfer that need from the child caregiver,

a relationship to our instrument partner,

like just cradle to grave.

We have this need throughout our entire lives and so when

we walk into this conversation and say,

Hey, this is what I need,

is this a good time for you?

Not only are we requesting to be seen,

but when we put that uterine in or we validate this

might be overwhelming,

this might be scary.

We help partner to also feel seen in that way.

It grounds the conversation with so much more quickly and just

really remarkable ways.

The forthright is just giving some breathing room,

right? Because the thing is we're pushing this conversation.

Like I said initially we're kind of coming in with an

advantage, right?

Like, we've got all of this planning and rehearsing and roleplaying

that we've done in our head around how we want to

present this to partner.

Then we need to give some breathing space for them to

process through.

Relationships are that perfect definition of the balance of the counterbalance

the into the gang.

And so the typical pairing in most partnerships is one person

is an external processor,

meaning that on their problem solving something or mulling something over,

they want to do it verbally with somebody that is supportive,

right? So they want to externalize it.

And the perfect match to that is somebody who's an internal

processor, meaning they need to take that time,

they need to kind of be reflective to where they kind

of process through to a more balanced place.

And when we rush either people out of their process,

it's when we tend to have the most miscommunications.

So really the fourth step is give us some breathing room,

is that we can't go into change with a sense of

urgency, that it's you don't decide yes,

that you're onboard to support me in the next 10 minutes.

It means you don't love me.

We have to allow for that breathing space so that we

can almost redistribute that power balance,

right? That we're both come coming in with an advantage,

meaning we've both given the time that we need to process

it through so that we can come to a problem solving

a logistic planning and implementation or action element of the conversation.

But we can't get there until we both feel heard and

both feel seen.

This is so concrete and so directional.

I'm so happy we're sharing this with everybody.

Let me tell you what I did with my husband.

I've now started two businesses where I've had to have this

kind of a conversation.

I didn't approach it exactly like this,

but the outcome was good.

So I think I did an okay job.

One of the things I also did was I said,

okay Michael,

this is what I see it looking like.

So when I started my first business,

I said,

I'm going to start in about six months.

In the meantime,

I'm going to be planning for it and this is how

much I would like to invest from our family funds.

Then I'm going to run the business for six months and

then reanalyze.

We'll see how it's doing and then determine from there what

would happen next.

And then as things were progressing,

I would keep him informed.

It's not like I had to report back to him all

the time,

but I just gave him some updates here and there because

that way he wasn't kept in the dark.

Because I think a lot of times the fear of unknown

makes people really uncomfortable and uneasy,

especially if your family finances are part of this conversation because

we were investing not a lot of money,

a little bit of money for the first business,

much more money for the second business.

Any comments on this approach or things that you could have

added where I w you know,

things that I could have done better.

Absolutely. Keep them informed and I love that idea of,

and this is kind of how long I'm going to give

myself, right?

Or this is how long we're going to just stay grinding

it out or whatever the case may be because there is

so much,

as much as we can keep our partners informed about our

business growth,

our business obstacles,

they're still in the dark a lot of ways because they're

not living it every day and it's not their necessarily their

passion that is now being turned into a business.

So being able to keep them informed,

but those little markers set an expectation of,

Hey, this is really overwhelming or scary for you.

This is how long I'm asking you to tolerate that discomfort

versus, Hey,

I know this is overwhelming for you and you just need

to deal with it.

As long as I feel like diving into it so that

timeline or that for the next six months it's going to

look like this helps to also create these markers and they

might be arbitrary meaning that in six months it might look

like this,

but it keeps a touchstone in both people's minds of being

able to say,

okay, the six months has come and gone.

Do we keep leaning into it?

Is there some ways that we can help help it grow

more? Is it something that six months was long enough to

see whether or not it was a viable business?

So that really helps to ground it because we've got some

indicator of how do we measure growth,

how are we coming back to having monthly or quarterly conversations

around this so that we're all on the same page.

Okay, perfect.

So we've talked about how to deliver the message and how

not to internalize it.

So let's say we've given our partners some breathing room and

they come back a little while later and they're like,

you know,

I've given this some thought and I am not with this

program for whatever the reasons are.

I don't like it,

I don't buy into it.

Then what do you do?

Well, back in my early,

early days of therapy,

like I said,

I worked a lot with trauma survivors and at the local

domestic violence clinic.

And then I worked with foster youth.

So I was just in the throws of trauma work.

And one thing that part of being a therapist for foster

youth is that we just have to go to these meetings.

They're called TDMs team decision making meetings where we'd sit around

if there was a placement change for our kiddo or a

school change,

some really big change in their life as we all had

to sit down as the support people in this child's life

and make a decision of,

okay, are we going to change placements or what are we

going to do to help support this kid?

So it would be myself as a therapist,

the attorney for the child,

maybe the bio parent,

maybe the foster parent,

maybe, I mean the social worker,

like we're all sitting in this room and we'd come up

with the best decision that we thought possible to really help

this kid thrive.

And then this amazing thing would happen where we'd have to

then go around the room with this said decision that had

been kind of discussed and compromised.

And we had to say whether or not we supported the

decision, right?

Like I agree with the decision and I will support it.

Meaning the actions that I am going to do are going

to be in support of yes,

I agree with this decision or we had to raise our

hand and say,

I don't agree with the decision.

I'm not on board,

but I'm not going to work against it.

Meaning I will agree to the steps that have been outlined

in our plan as a service provider to this child and

I'll do it with a pure heart,

but I really just,

I'm just,

I don't agree with what decided here.

Or the third option was,

not only do I not agree with it,

I'm not doing what you're asking me,

like I'm not going to sabotage,

but I'm not doing these things that are outlined in my

realm to help this plan move forward and that skill,

like that experience way early in my career is something that

I've applied to really working with entrepreneurial women when they have

a partner who's saying,

I'm not on board is really getting down to the heart

of, okay,

that is hard to hear and we want to kind of

process through the emotions that come with it because that's a

hard thing to hear,

right? But we've got to also then with partners say,

okay, so of these three,

right, if you're saying if we rule out,

I agree with it,

I'm going to support it,

right? If partner is saying,

I'm not on board,

but our two other options then remain,

which is you don't agree with it,

but you're willing to support me in whatever this capacity looks

like as I do it anyway.

Or is it,

I don't agree with it and I'm not going to do

anything to support it And hopefully not sabotage though.

Right. And hopefully not sabotage.

Right. Which was never really a fourth option in these big

old meetings,

but there was some side glances that maybe there was,

we're going to do that.

Right? Yeah.

But they could be in a relationship like we're talking about.

They could be like,

no, it's not right.

I don't want you to do it.

Or heaven forbid you have someone who is super controlling and

dominating and says you cannot do this.

Yes. And that's really because if we kind of spoke to

the first group,

which is,

I agree with it,

I'm going to support it.

What we're talking about right now has kind of these two

or maybe three categories in terms of the sabotage or,

but if it's the second one,

which is,

I don't agree,

but I will support it.

That's not terrible.

That one really what we want to do there is just

be cautious of,

it's not terrible and we just have to be really cautious

about the meaning that we take away around partner's love for

us because they will agree,

but not support.

They're talking about this idea.

But I think of myself and a lot of business owners,

what I do is a part of my identity,

right? And so if a partner says to me,

Hey, I don't agree with this idea,

but I'll encourage you along the way.

We've got to be cautious that I don't then take the

meaning and say,

Oh, well they don't really love me because they don't believe

in my identity.

Like we've just gotta be so cautious there with that kind

of second group,

right? It's not the worst,

but we've just gotta be really careful that it doesn't kind

of create these messages that we,

even to the marriage or the relationship that create,

that have a lot of resentment or injury.

Like I said,

be cautious there.

I think to clarify what won't support or won't work against

means, because for some people who are going to start a

business, the first way that they're initially going to sell means

going out to craft shows where they might be taking time

away from their weekends or night times and their partner might

be, well now I'm not seeing you as often because of

this new career you have.

And resentment might start building up in that way.

Furthermore, they might say,

and you know,

don't expect me to be spending my weekend sitting with you

at craft shows.

I want to be fishing or playing golf or something like

that. So they might not necessarily agree with it because in

my example,

they're not supporting it because of time.

So maybe having some clarification over what their concerns are about

supporting you.

Um, maybe time is their issue and if you're a way

to overcome that,

then they'd be more supportive.

Right. But it goes down to communication because they're really not

trying to put you in kind of an I told you

situation, they just have different concerns.

Definitely. And that meaning thing goes both ways,

right? Because if the maker is going to crash shows on

the weekends and things like that.

So if they're being cautious about not taking meaning away when

a partner says,

I disagree,

but I'll support you,

you go do your thing,

right. That,

that doesn't mean,

well then you don't really care about me.

Yeah. Like,

okay, well don't expect me,

I'm not doing that.

Well, okay,

now you know.

Right, Right.

And also being upfront of,

okay, and when I go,

what happens if you start feeling resentful of where I'm spending

my time,

like how do we have a plan to come back and

start talking to each other if that resentments growing.

Right. Like so really it's kind of getting to a plan

of it's okay if you don't agree with it.

Right. I appreciate that you're saying go do it,

but I don't want to be a part of it.

But what happens when I go do it?

And you start feeling a little bit pushed away.

Can you come to me and let me know that like

can we have ongoing conversations so that we're still nurturing our

relationship despite this really big exciting thing that I'm doing that

you may not be on board with.

So that's really where the conversation lies.

Yeah, like maybe almost even formally setting checkpoints.

Like every month let's go out to dinner,

I'll share with you what I'm doing and where we're at.

In turn,

you can feel free to ask me questions and I'd also

like input your thoughts and let's just have a conversation about

all this.

So everything is always staying out in the open.

Definitely. And usually when we sat at that time aside,

where that intentionality that we're showing partner is we're showing that

they're a priority,

right? And so even if it is once a month,

we're going to sit down and do it because we keep

that time as sacred and we've spent other weekends at other

craft shows or building the business is usually partner can see

the consistency around that intentional time together and less of that

resentment or less of that negative meaning is attributed to the

other time away because they see that they are also a

priority. So it has amazing effects of just the consistency of

it and then what comes out of the conversations.

Okay, perfect.

And then what happens when you get that full slam door

response? It's a tough one.

There's a lot of honestly,

kind of mourning that has to happen around the response that

we really wanted.

Right? I'm not saying morning around the relationship ending,

but morning around there's a lot of loss.

I'm feeling around this part of me that feels like it

needs to be put life into and I'm being told that

not only his partner doesn't agree with what I wanting to

do, but they're not going to support it.

Right. That they're going to potentially make it hard or for

me, I've got women I've worked with where they're building this

business and it looks different when you are building a business.

Then when you're in the nine to five like it just

a lot of times to some people it may not look

like what exactly are you doing right?

And you're like,

I am working so,

so hard and yet it doesn't look the same way.

And they will say,

I've worked all day.

I'm out there trying to build my confidence and grow my

skill and I come home and all the things that maybe

I was in charge of or had been divvied up prior

to this are sitting there waiting for me to get done

and the after I've come home like that just feels so

unsupportive. Kids are still awake,

nobody's been fed and it feels like a big old just

punch in the gut of what is going on here that

I'm being really feeling like I'm being sabotaged by partner in

terms of them kind of dusting off their hands and saying,

you know what?

You do it,

but nothing else can change.

And it is,

it does come with a lot of feelings of mourning,

a loss.

And really the biggest piece is can we get to the

why? Like what is it that's going on for partner that

is making them dig their heels in so much?

Because the more we dig our heels in,

the more stubborn place that we tear into you usually just

because of fear.

Like we will not move our position because we are fearful.

And you ask a stubborn person if they're scared and they

look at you like you're crazy,

right? So you have to know that it,

it's using language of help me understand why it's such a

strong note or help me understand what is about it that

makes you disagree with it.

And usually as long as you're filtering down and filtering down,

it will come to a place of fear.

But it takes some time to get there because I'm a

very stubborn person and I'm very in touch with fear now.

But in my younger years,

like I would deny to anybody that I was scared of

anything. And now fear is a friend of mine.

I learn a lot from my fears.

Well, and they may not be able to put words to

it either.

They just,

it feels uncomfortable to them.

They can't necessarily describe why,

you know,

perhaps they've never had an entrepreneur or someone in their family

who has done anything other than working for somebody else.

So this is really unfamiliar territory.

It's against any stability that you would want to feel.

And that's important.

In that case,

you're trying to get to the why and I guess that's

a relationship issue then that you try and work on.

But then you need support from somewhere.

I think you'll agree with me,

Anna. So if it's not going to be your spouse or

it's only going to be your spouse to a certain level,

as you were saying with number two,

so they don't really agree,

but they're not going to work against what you're doing.

You would still want some type of an advocate,

some strong supporter that you would find from somewhere.

A hundred percent I mean,

there's got to be a group,

a community,

a tribe,

whatever you call it,

around you that is there to support you.

And this is a group that it looks different people,

I mean,

a lot of my business support people are online people that

I've created wonderful connections with,

and it's being able to speak that entrepreneurial lab language because

if I go to,

I mean my husband was raised by two entrepreneurs,

so that's a huge,

huge asset to our marriage.

But if I go to him and I'm S,

you know,

the sky is falling,

the barn is burning,

right? If I go to him in these panic places,

there may be a way he's reassuring in the moment,

but he's panicking them inside.

Whereas if I go to somebody who is a business owner

and I'm panic about whatever it is,

they're not going to then take that internally as that and

go, Oh my God,

she's gonna make her mortgage.

Right? And so sometimes even if we've got a really,

really supportive partner,

we still need that community in whatever way we define it.

To be able to speak that language and be able to

air out those fears and not have it create relationship traumas

around, Oh my gosh,

what's going on?

So that community,

and that's one of the reasons I enjoy your podcast.

So much of just the community of women that are listening

and building connections around.

Yes, this is something that is possible.

And there's also lots of things that happen.

I mean I think we've all seen that meme of what

we think the entrepreneurial journey looks like and it's like a

straight diagonal line versus what it actually is.

And it's that up and down,

up and down.

We need that community And it needs to be someone who

truly gets it.

Hopefully someone who's doing it at themselves.

So that's really awesome cause it can be reciprocal.

You can support them,

they can support you,

that would work beautifully.

So what do you think of where you can go to

find other supporters,

friends, maybe you have a sister-in-law who shows interest and is

excited about your plans,

someone who is outside the business but can be a sounding

board that you can go to when you need a pick

me up or just to bounce ideas off of.

Do you think that's important too or,

Yeah, and you're going to do it very similar to how

we talked about with partner is that if you're going to

best friend and saying,

Oh my gosh,

I'm so overwhelmed right now.

Can you just listen to me vent and tell me everything's

going to be okay and best friends like girl,

I got you.

Go for it like this.

This is good.

So it is okay,

but we also have to let them know because especially,

and I think this is the difference between sometimes we are

lucky enough to have our support system,

meaning our friends and our family get it right and sometimes

they love us but they don't necessarily get it in terms

of that business growth way.

I have a dear friend and she works like a very

traditional schedule and if I go to her and I'm panicked

about my business or you know,

just whatever the case may be,

she might be really supportive,

but she doesn't necessarily get it in terms of that same

way. So it's okay for us to have different people in

our support system that serve different roles.

Maybe we have a friend that really enjoys cussing and she's

like, girl,

you call me up and you vent and you use every

dealer word in the book.

I can tolerate it.

Like who knows what that that strength is,

feels that we need in the moment.

But it's very similar of knowing what you need,

asking for it,

but also knowing your relationships well enough to know that you're

asking for something that like this person can really easily provide

you. And then you get to be that reciprocal person based

on your strengths or your skillset that what you bring to

that support system.

Yeah. And I think also somebody who doesn't have a vested

interest in the outcome so they can be pretty much objective

even though they're a good friend of yours and I'm actually

thinking right now of a good friend of mine who has

sometimes said,

Sue, I don't agree with you.

I think you've got it all wrong and I'm thinking this

other way.

Someone who's willing to not just agree with me but make

me look at things a different way,

challenge me a little bit.

I think that's really helpful.

But you can only do that when you really have solid

levels of trust.

Honesty, you don't think there's any underlying motive.

Like they're not setting you up to fail or something.

They really have your best interest at heart.

And those conversations come from close friends in my opinion.

Possibly online connections too.

But close friends.

Yeah, and they're ones that you've built.

I have to have become dear,

dear friends.

And we did meet,

one was a colleague introduced us and the other one was

I met her at a conference and the three of us

have become such great friends and one of them is,

she's just so nurturing kind that anytime I've got a doubt

or I'm just overwhelmed,

she's right there love on me.

And the other one is such a straight shooter that when

I raised my fees,

which as a helper healer,

that's a hard thing to do.

Yeah, I'm sure.

Yeah. I think raising our fees and talking about money,

it's such a hard thing.

But when the helper healer community,

unfortunately there's a lot of shame that is associated with are

you a good helper,

healer? If you'd make enough to live like it's just so

backwards and garbage.

But that's another conversation.

And so this is my fees and she's such a straight

shooter. And the way she called me out on our 3%

text message,

I could feel her love because I know her,

but I'm like,

girl, you're the only person in the world that could say

this stuff to me and that I hate you're it.

And I use it as growth points versus I hear it

and I get my feelings hurt or I hear it and

disregard it and say,

you don't know me,

or whatever the case may be.

Right. So really it's fostering those friendships and knowing the person

well enough that that she just got so much love for

me, but she can say things like that and I never

hear them as something that is unkind.

It's always just so filled with love,

even if it's so much more direct than I may approach

it. Different relationships offer you different types and different levels of

support. That's for sure.

This has been a fabulous conversation and these four steps in

terms of approaching a conversation I know are going to serve

me and our listeners really well and although we used it

specifically for entering into a conversation about starting a business,

clearly this can be used for any potentially powerful,

impactful, important conversation that you come up with in your life.

I also really appreciate your direction.

I've never really thought of this before in terms of how

you would handle a conversation and clearly never recognized or realized

these three levels of support.

Obviously you'd like the reaction with the first one.

The second one is okay,

I mean you can work with it,

but the third one,

what do you do if someone really,

really is against what your dreaming of at least understanding where

you can go next and having some concrete steps I think

is really helpful and some of our listeners are thinking about

having this conversation.

They're ready to take their next step and talk about this

with their significant other.

So thank you so much,

Anna. This has been golden.

This is one of those interviews where I'm not sure exactly

what we're going to be talking about as we get into

it and now that we've gone through it,

it is so much more than I ever could have hoped.

So thank you for that and I know that all our

listeners are saying the same thing.

My pleasure to in exchange,

I'd like to present you with a virtual gift.

It's a magical box containing unlimited possibilities.

For your future.

So this is your dream or your goal of almost unreachable

Heights that you would wish to obtain.

Please accept this gift and open it in our presence.

What's inside your box?

Hmm. I love this question.

Inside my box is the ability to just connect with women

on these conversations is being able to,

through speaking,

through social,

through being able to just reach more ears,

more listeners,

and being able to encourage them to step fully into their

passion. And so for me,

looking at this box,

it looks like more speaking,

more workshops,

more conferences of just on this topic and having this really,

really rich conversation.

Because I love the therapy work that I do and it's

also work that in 14 years has taken.

It takes a lot of you and I love that I

do that,

but being able to also balance it with speaking and speaking

in this realm.

I'm thinking back to that day in your class when you

made the decision to make a change,

you have so much talent and so much skill in what

you've chosen to do and I so want your gift to

be true to where you can keep sharing because we all

so need it.

It all works hand in hand.

How can our listeners learn more about you,

Anna? Yeah.

The best place is to head to my website life unscripted,

counseling.com and I've got all my links to social.

I've got links to my podcast.

I've got a weekly blog that is literally a relationship tip

every single week for them to be able to check out

and there's also actually a link on there for a seven

day relationship challenge that's free.

They can click on that and sign up and it's delivered

to their inbox every day of just different ways to dive

into relationship skill building,

relationship conversations.

They can do it one day for seven days.

They can parcel it out and have it be part of

an every other week,

date night that they kind of take the scripts and the

activities too.

But I love to offer that to your listeners because it

is just a really guided concrete way to dive in into

just a deep clear part of knowing each other and our

relationships. So yes,

life unscripted,

counseling.com is my site.

Perfect. And gift biz listeners,

I'll just remind you of the show notes page,

so if you weren't able to capture information right this minute,

you can always go and resource it later.

Anna, thank you from the bottom of my heart for this

conversation today.

I know it is going to help so many people and

it has been absolutely marvelous having you on the show.

Oh, thank you Sue,

and thank you for the work that you're doing.

I really,

really enjoy your podcast and I'm just so excited that we've

connected virtually now and I'm excited to just continue to listen

to your podcast and just being a fan of the work

you're doing.

Oh my gosh,

Thank you so much for that.

And I know we'll definitely stay connected for sure.

No, I used to get a pit in my stomach every

time I had to approach a difficult conversation.

I really feel that now with Anna's direction,

I can be much more in control of how I introduce

an issue into the conversation and then manage through what happens

from there.

It all goes back to communication and respecting one another,

but having the structure helps so much as we close out

the show this week.

One last reminder about my masterclass,

it's called how to turn your handmade product into an income

producing business and the link to register is gift biz on

rapt.com forward slash masterclass I'll see you out here again next

week. Bye for now.

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