229 – Learning from a Handmade Critter Business with Kenny and Jenifer Kudulis of kudu-lah

Gift biz unwrapped episode 229 that was the day when I

was like,

wait, I will make something and people will give me money

for it.

At Tinton,

gifters, bakers,

crafters and makers pursuing your dream can be fun whether you

have an established business or looking to start one now you

are in the right place.

This is gift to biz unwrapped,

helping you turn your skill into a flourishing business.

Join us for an episode packed full of invaluable guidance,

resources and the support you need to grow your gift biz.

Here is your host gift biz gal Sue moon Heights.

Hi there,

it's Sue And I'm thrilled to have you joining me here

today. I can't believe that the summer is almost over.

The kids are back or on their way back to school

and I can definitely feel the switch.

The pace is picking up.

I think people are looking toward the holiday season and setting

their plans in place for that.

If you're just starting your business,

the holidays,

a great time to run some tests on your products too.

If you're thinking of doing some fall or holiday craft shows,

church bazaars,

things like that.

You can observe what sells best.

Maybe it's certain sizes and colors.

You can test out your pricing and you can talk with

the people who come by and look at your displays too.

There's a wealth of knowledge that you can learn that will

serve you in the future,

so take advantage of this opportunity.

If you're new to business and you're checking to see what

the market looks like for your product.

Also an FYI,

I'm going to be at the Philadelphia candy show the weekend

of September 7th it's appropriately enough in Hershey,

Pennsylvania and we'll be there exhibiting for the ribbon print company

and I'll also be doing a class on what's working now

in social media.

Gosh, this is the presentation that I have to change almost

every time I present it because things keep changing there pretty

much by the month,

so definitely check this out if you're in the area,

I'd love to meet you in person,

take pictures,

all those fun things.

The show today is a really fun one,

especially if you're just starting out because you'll hear from the

start how a product found its place was validated and went

on to become an entire business unto itself.

I can't help but smile when I think of this and

without keeping you questioning what the heck I'm talking about.

Let's just dive right into the show.

Thrilled To introduce you to someone that I just met a

few weeks ago.

Kenneth could do lists and his wife have created a company

called kudu LA established in thousand and seven kudu law is

a husband and wife duo originally based in Brooklyn and harnessing

the power of awesome Kenny and Jennifer bring you critters.

They're original monster like characters that are inspired by folks seen

traveling through the New York city,

subways, Kenny sketches,

paint and names,

all the characters and then Jennifer creates their individual bios.

The critters are often seen,

captured in their Mason jars or juxtaposed into the couples original

photography. All pieces are lovingly handmade by Kenny and Jennifer in

Chattanooga and today we have them right on the show.

Welcome to the gift biz on wrapped podcast.

Hey, thank you.

Yeah, thanks for having us.

I'm thrilled that you're both here.

We're going to have a really good talk.

I just know,

but before we get started,

I always like to introduce you in a creative way and

that is by having you share.

If you had an ideal candle that looked just like you,

what would it be?

A color and quote on your motivational candle.

Well mine,

I love the color of midnight blue and I love the

quote, there's nowhere to go but everywhere.

So just keep on rolling under the stars and that's from

on the road.

And as Jack Kerouac always liked that one,

Love it.

There's nowhere to go but everywhere,

And mine is a little bit different.

So I would be the color of pumpkin spice and I

particularly liked the quote from Jan Berry's Peter pan.

All the wildest may have faith and trust and pixie dust.

I love it.

You guys are like so perfect together.

We heard that.

Might I also just note I'm from Chicago,

so blue and orange.

Go bears.

I just had to put that in there.

I like the cubbies.

I grew up watching WGN,

my dad is from Chicago,

so yeah,

we watched the Chicago games.

There you go.

And I'm a Cubs girl too,

so. All right,

let me just share,

I've got to tell you guys,

get busy listeners.

So we have a fine art show and craft shows.

We actually have a couple of shows each summer,

right in my hometown of Highland park,

Illinois and it attracts artists from literally all over the world.

And I ran into the kudu law booth last year,

but you guys were so packed,

I didn't get a chance to stop and talk with you.

Plus it was super hot that day.

But luckily two weeks ago I got there really early on

a Sunday right when it was starting.

And Kenny,

you were around and actually had a little bit of time

to chat with me.

And the reason I'm bringing all this up is my intro

doesn't do justice to what you guys present and your monster,

like characters.

They are so super cute,

so colorful,

so original.

And just to explain for you guys,

cause I know a lot of you can't see them right

now and don't have in your mind's eye what they look

like. Think of these cute,

very bold,

very original characters like cartoonish type characters that you own kind

of in a jar.

They remind me of like old Polly pockets or the Ninja

turtle, like something like that.

But so people gravitate to the certain characters,

they start to love and own certain characters and they wanted

then collect art where the characters are showing up.

So it's like real photography but then the character is inside

a photo somewhere.

So it's kind of like you're finding them out in the

world somewhere.

I guess I would say,

I don't know if I'm doing justice to this at all,

but I wanted to explain a little bit more before we

got into this story.

I think the best thing for you guys to do is

jump over to either the show notes or their websites so

you can see what these look like.

Of course,

don't stop now,

continue listening to the podcast,

but afterwards you just have to see how beautiful,

adorable, creative.

I feel like I want to be a little girl against

that. I could have like five of them,

Kara, Doris,

maybe I'm allowed to as an adult.

I don't know.

We'll see Your laptop.

I actually,

is it interesting when we do encounter adults and there's this

sort of moment when they're like,

Oh, I wish I was a kid or I wish I

had kids and I'm like,

you can still have fun.

And it's interesting when I give them that permission,

they're like,

you know,

I can,

yeah, I can have a little fun in my life.

And then they welcome our little characters into their home.

So you've given me permission right now to come claim a

character when you guys are in town.

100% yeah.

You should pick a great people pick their personalities.

It's like their spirit career.

The first one they pick up is usually the one they

identify with and the one that they ended up getting and

taking on home.

Oh, I'm so excited.

Okay. So I'm really hoping,

I know you guys are coming back to Highland park in

a few weeks.

I really hope hoping I'm in town cause I'm going to

swing by and see you guys and pick my character.

Let's back up,

share with me a little bit about how this all started.

What are your backgrounds?

Like how did it originate?

How did critters come to be?

So I have a background in theater.

That's what moved me to New York.

So I was working at the Julliard school and coming back

and forth to work.

You have late night calls,

right? You're there two,

three o'clock in the morning coming back from work so that

the trains are like they can run crazy.

So to kill time I had my sketchbook with me cause

we were just doodling and doing on projects during the day.

And yeah,

I know some of you guys have been on the subways

early in the morning.

There's a lot of creepy crawlers,

people that are just didn't choose or maybe not choose to

live there.

So this was all new to me.

That's a nice way of describing it.

Yeah. So it was culture shock,

I guess to say the least because it was my,

I just moved to New York.

I was only there for a couple months.

So this is the way I guess.

Yeah, I interpreted these people,

I made them into these monster little characters that later become

as critters.

I call them critters.

So like yeah,

I kind of took parts of their personality and made them

into like a bunch of eyeballs and teeth and they were

out there exploring the subways in New York or at large.

So this was just a past time you were just doing

this for fun?

Yeah. At first it was just for fun and I didn't

know when I had like 40 of them,

I was like,

man, I have a whole cast of these things.

What am I going to do with them?

And so the natural thing with me is like were I

found them was in the subway.

So that was the first painting I was,

it was of the characters in the subway.

And from there I was like,

Oh, these guys are just exploring New York.

Just like me.

It's like sort of the first time it's all new.

I liked that aspect of it.

So that's where the nexus,

the beginning of all of it was with them exploring some

ways paintings on photography.

Okay. And so you were still doing this justice fund?

Oh yeah.

It was just as fun.

I mean it was fun for the first four or five

years, even when I first started selling,

because I chose not to go to grad school and then

I chose just to sell on the street.

I had that luxury at the beginning.

You were still allowed to sell on the streets on New

York. So that was,

I call it my schooling because I learned a whole heck

of a lot because people are very truthful on the street.

Really. So what year would that have been like?

you established the business,

so be early two thousands I guess.

shop and at first kind of started going out as Kadula

cause before then I was selling kind of other things on

the street too cause I didn't have full confidence in the

characters yet because cause that's like no one's going to buy

these weird characters.

I mean I didn't know what they are yet.

I can't sell them and I couldn't wrap my brain around

what they were yet.

Okay. This is really interesting.

Okay. So I have two things to talk about now.

First off,

Jennifer, are you in the picture anywhere here yet?

Yeah. So at this time when we first moved to New

York, we were living together and Kenny was working as a

scenic artist.

I was working as an actor in and out of jobs.

And so in seeing it calls for him were very sporadic.

And then theater gigs for me were very sporadic as well.

So there was always sort of downtime in between.

And any free time he had,

he was at home drawing and or painting.

We had a very,

very tiny apartment and he used to paint in our hallway

on our laundry baskets and that was my studio.

It was a whopping three feet wide.

Love that.

Oh my gosh.

And so when he started building up his little array of

critters, were you like rethinking the relationship,

thinking he was crazy or what were you thinking at that

point? No,

it's really interesting because he would travel to the scene of

calls. Like he said,

the work calls are really,

really early in the morning.

So with the trains being I'm off hours and at the

time we were in Queens,

he would have to leave the house at like three 30

in the mornings,

sometimes three o'clock in the morning.

And so he took his sketchbook by the time he came

home, it was never something that I really saw.

He was always painting and working on stuff and I basically

was just sort of the supportive girlfriend of like,

yeah, that looks great.

Maybe less of this,

maybe more of this.

Just sort of a springboard of,

And it wasn't until he had kind of had numerous of

these characters drawn and we started pulling up sketchbooks and I

was like,

wait, what is this?

I was like,

this is,

Oh these are adorable.

I was like,

this is really cute.

I was like,

what are you doing with these?

And he's like,

Oh, that's nothing.

That's just,

I don't know.

I don't know,

isn't nothing.

And then I was like,

I think it's really good.

And I think having somebody else look at it that he

trusted having just like that little push of like,

yeah, explore that.

Yeah, just a little like boost of confidence.

I was like,

Oh, maybe these are something that opens up a whole world

of like,

okay, well what can I do with some?

Yeah, maybe I can do this math.

And I remember the first day he went out,

he went out and he sold on the street.

He took like two small pieces with them and I took

four Oh four that's right.

It was on a car table.

The most busted car table you can think of.

And I didn't have a way to display them,

so I had basically solo cups that I got from the

house and they duct tape them to the top being the

paintings on.

But Sue,

it was so awesome.

I sold three that day and then from that day forward

I never looked back.

That was the day when I was like,

wait, I will make something and people will give me money

for it that I made.

It blew my mind.

I came home,

I was so excited.

We were over the moon.

I was like,

if you assault three pieces,

Oh my God,

I have goosebumps over here.

It was so amazing.

Yeah, I mean first off Jennifer,

that you saw the characters and are like,

wait a minute,

we need to talk further.

Like you identified that this could be something and Kenny,

you had to be so excited when that happened and then

to get validation on the street almost immediately.

Yeah. That was the great thing about the street.

Like, I never went to grad school,

so I don't know how that development process works.

But say I take something to the street,

I make it that week.

I take it out there.

If no one bought it,

I was like,

okay, I gotta do better because obviously this is not great.

So it taught me how to talk about my art and

then try to sell it,

which is a whole other animal.

And yeah,

what people really responded to.

So that helped me navigate in a lot of things early.

There's nothing like people confirming that you have a product that

they want.

Right. Versus pretending and thinking and guessing and then they don't.

So you were confirming right from the very beginning.

How did you price those first pieces?

Oh my goodness.

Well the originals,

I remember they were like maybe like 50 bucks or 25

bucks. No,

I think they only like $40 I think were the three

pieces. He came home and I think the whole thing was

like $85 and I was like,

well, you made any $5 today.

That's amazing.

I mean we were living in New York on a very,

very tight budget.

So to just have that kind of happen.

And I know one fellow,

he lived in New York and then that morning a lady

she was visiting from Boston,

she bought one and I guess she liked it so much

it was on her mind.

She came back later that afternoon and bought another one.

So that was the three that I sold.

But yeah they were around like 40 bucks and they were

all original and like I have the one that's left so

I made four and I kept one cause it was one

of the first ones I made.

So you still have that now?

Yes, I will never sell.

That is the first one I made.

It is the first of the first painting I ever did.

Oh wow.

You do fall in love with them.

You really do.

I totally see it.

And when I was at the booth just a couple of

weeks ago,

I was seeing people coming and they were looking for new

photos with their particular critter on it.

So I understand what you're talking about where that woman was

like she loved the one,

she came back for another and now I mean repeat business

is almost in your model because people are going to want

to follow you and see what's new specifically with their critter.

Yeah, definitely.

Well the other thing,

we initially started exclusively doing pieces that were just on the

New York city subway and then naturally as we started to

travel and see different things,

I mean because we were very young when we moved to

the city,

so as we started to explore more of the world,

we only felt it was natural for the critters to explore

more of the world.

And so now they've kind of branched out all over and

it's interesting to see people,

they really want to see these characters in sort of their

cities and cities that they know and love.

Yeah, like Highland park.

Yeah, totally.

I might have to figure something out with you about my

whoever my critters going to be.

We'll see.

Kenny, you were talking about your street sales and things that

you learned right in the beginning.

Do you have any tips or hints for somebody?

Cause one of the things that I'm really focusing on with

this audience right now is to validate your idea before you

spend a lot of time and money starting a business,

just like you saw.

So naturally that people gravitated and more purchasing and when there's

one or two sales,

you know there's more,

but you have to get those one or two first.

Is there anything you would say to somebody who keeps stopping

because they weren't so sure about taping to a styrofoam cup

or something?

Right. Like they're feeling like they have everything.

Perfect. What would you say to someone who's,

they just need to get going and try it.

What have you learned?

Honestly, it's just sticking with it and that it sounds really

simple, but it's very hard.

I mean you can beat yourself down to saying like all

this is,

this is awful in your own head.

This is,

I don't want to show anybody this.

But then you get it out there.

You just gotta keep grinding it.

That's why we say all the time we're just grinding.

It's like Sisyphus,

you got keep pushing that rock up that Hill.

So did you have times when you brought some things out

cause you were saying that your critters weren't the only thing

that you were showing at the time,

right? Yeah.

So Jim is my,

like I had bounced all the ideas of Jen.

I don't know how her brain doesn't explode because I'm just

like, I throw her all ideas all the time.

Yeah. And she helps guide the ship,

you know what I mean?

Sometimes I get off on a tangent of creating these things

and I was like,

ah, yeah and you need to stay focused on sometimes.

Yeah. I think having somebody that you trust that also shares,

yeah. Not necessarily shares your taste,

but can appreciate what you're trying to do.

I think having somebody like a sounding board sort of like

the way that the two of us work together,

he knows that if I say that something's not working or

if there are elements of a piece that are really working,

then I will give him constructive criticism and say this is

good and this is not.

I think what's really hard is that when you're a creative

person and you make something and you put everything you have

into it,

it's very hard for you to look at your own piece

that you've created objectively.

And it's not having an outside eye come in and say,

this is what's working,

but this is not what's working.

And if you trust them,

you should be able to basically push past this little slump

that you're in and make something better.

The goal as artists is always to make something better,

to always keep ourselves excited and invested in our work.

But how do you get over if something like Jennifer,

it sounds like you are very smooth in your feedback,

right? But people who are on the street who aren't buying

aren't necessarily,

so you might want to edit that.

I'm not sure you can change that if you want to

have a super thick skin,

if you're out there selling,

I mean even now,

I mean I've been,

this is our 12th year doing this and like when people

say things like,

it doesn't bother me in the least,

but now you're established.

But that first year or two years.

Yeah, it cuts,

I mean it hurts.

You know what I mean?

Like it's very personal,

but you just have to maybe go home and cry in

a corner and just question your life and learn glass of

wine and then the next day go out there and just

do it again.

I think never gets easier.

Say like year one to year 12 it never gets easier.

It just changes,

you know what I mean?

Like things,

it's always hard.

I think that because we both came from a theater background

and particularly I came from a performance background,

so at being an actor for the couple of years that

I was,

it's one of those things that you put yourself out there,

you try 50 different auditions,

you get hopefully 49 rejections.

There's always that one.

Yeah. There's one thing and you take that one moment and

you're like,

this is something that was received well and there are so

many variables that even when you think you know what it

was and you try to recapture that,

there are other things that are outside of your control.

So if somebody is like,

they go out and they try it two or three times,

that's not going to cut it.

You can't try it two or three times because what if

the person that's interested in your stuff,

they weren't there where you were like,

what if they can see it that day?

Or what if you had an off day or what if

it was really bad weather or what if something happened on

the news?

There's things outside of your control that you have to know.

Whatever it is that you are creating your stand behind now

that can change over time and it shouldn't be able to

initiate change.

It should grow as you grow with your product.

You go out there,

you're putting it out there,

and if somebody has,

we've heard everything,

I won't repeat some of the things that you said,

but you're just,

you say if it's not for you,

then don't buy it.

Well, and that's the thing.

It's okay for people not,

I don't know how they couldn't,

but it's okay for not To care for what you're doing

because the people who do love it and if you play

that neutral field,

you're not going to attract such a loyal and solid audience

ever and you wouldn't stand for anything.

So I really do think it is okay.

And you don't need millions and millions of people to love

what you do to make a good living.

Of course you want everybody to love what you do.

I get that.

But for a solid business,

you don't need that.

You just need people who really take it to heart,

are passionate about what you're doing and are going to come

back and are going to spread the word.

Yeah. I mean our customers are like,

I love our customers.

They're just like us,

a little quirky and weird and they like fun whimsical things,

Right? So that's I think where we identify as like so

much with them.

We're like almost instant friends with a lot of them.

You sit there and just talk.

Even after they bought they just sit there and just talk

with them cause I just find them interesting too.

So again,

it's pretty great.

Yeah, we actually,

we've become really good friends with several of our customers over

the year.

Like I said,

they are receptive to it and I think because we are

making something that we love and when they see it,

it's sort of like an added bonus.

It's like,

Oh we both liked this thing.

Wait, you made this thing.

Oh I like you now.

I like you too.

Right. Okay.

So but let me ask you the harder question.

When you were out with the street sales and you saw

some things not moving,

Jennifer, you're saying,

well maybe it was the third time.

No one liked it,

but the fourth time someone would come and like it.

Where's the point where you cut off where you try and

you try,

you have the tough skin,

you go back and cry and have a glass of wine.

I'm all about that.

But then at some point,

honestly there might be some products that just don't have a

market. Like where is that line?

Of course.

Oh yeah,

100% that is absolutely I think after like a couple of

weeks or something,

maybe months even you put it out there,

it always like gets to the side or it's always on

the bottom right of your display and it's like you're not

feeling that confident about it and no one talks about it

and then I think it's time to paint over it or

just rework it.

You have to be able to,

I mean at the end of the day it's not like

we're just,

it's not a passion project.

You're running a business and so you need to look at

it like you're running the business.

You have to look at each individual piece of inventory essentially

and go,

why is this piece not moving?

And if you really kind of put it in front of

enough people and it's still not moving as well as a

pricing issue.

And if it's not a pressure issue,

maybe it's just time to rework the piece or to scrap

it. I'll tell you,

and I have boxes of stuff that doesn't work.

So I never showed people that,

but it's still there.

And also the other thing that Kenny and I kind of

go back and forth because he is constant.

He's like a machine and he's constantly creating stuff.

And just because you've created it does not mean that it's

ready to sell.

And that's a tricky thing because especially when you're starting out,

if you're starting out,

I think that if you feel like your piece is ready

to be shown or almost even ready to be shown,

do it.

Like just do it.

What's the worst that can somebody say something mean to you

or they don't buy it?

That's the worst that can happen.

What do you mean by not ready to sell?

Not ready yet.

What does that mean?

Because sometimes Kenny will do paintings,

work, anything that's just not ready.

You look at something and you're like,

something's missing aspect of it that's just not quite right.

It's intuitive.

Yeah. It's just something that once you start to look at

anything, it's sort of like you're baking a cake and you

decorate it and you're like,

yep, something's still missing.

And when you get that,

that last thing on the earth,

you're like,

okay, this is good.

This is ready to present.

So I think what you're also saying then is don't rush

it either.

You're going to know when it's ready.

Don't rush making something just so that you can go sell

the product has to be right unto itself.

Yeah. And you have to feel like the product is ready

to get to where the characters are,

where they are now.

It's put five or six years.

I mean,

it's not like,

I mean I was still selling it and still developing it,

but where it actually like landed where it was tight and

awesome and it's like,

yes, this is it.

Like it's five or six years in.

So it's math and it's a slow process.

The other thing I keep hearing both of you talk about

is that you were really focused and observing what your potential

buyers were commenting on,

talking about who did buy et cetera.

Can you speak a little more to that?

Oh yeah.

When you mean learn,

especially in the beginning a lot from the customer,

like figuring out price points,

which is like an insane thing to try to figure it

out. Rest the heart.

It's a hard thing at the beginning is frustrating.

Where is the pricing thing but then like what characters they

were into.

Cause when I first started it was 24 characters and then

I will them down to 16 and that that's what I

sell today at 16 characters at a time.

So I figured out how to wheel out some of the

characters that weren't that strong.

So yeah,

just communicating with them and people aren't actually on the streets.

You gave constructive criticism,

they might not have bought,

but they were like,

Hey, I like your standard.

Like how maybe you visually change this or like it was

very helpful.

Start going out into the community,

you'll find other people that are kind of in the same

kind of ballpark that you are.

They're sort of like,

Oh, I'm just starting out and you'll become friends with those

people. And then you'll also find people who've been like,

yeah, I've been doing this five,

10 years.

And any kind of advice that they can give you,

listen to that.

Yeah, that's really good advice too.

You guys make such an good team.

I can just hear it,

but not everybody has that.

Not everyone's spouse believes in necessarily what they're doing.

And you do need a support or you were talking about

that earlier,

that you needed to hear from Jennifer that there was potential

here. And Jennifer,

you were able to talk to Kenny about,

ah, not so sure about this one.

You guys could support each other through a common goal of

getting this out to market somehow.

Yeah. And that was a very hard thing,

like just working together.

But you have to be able to work together.

But we also have a relationship together.

So that's been a work in progress for sure.

It probably always will be.

Yeah. I mean there's definitely,

there are days we have our battles and it's like,

is this a spouse battle or is this a work battle?

Right, right.

But I just wanted,

I also,

before I forget to say this,

if GIF is listeners,

you're in a position where you don't have somebody who's supportive

of you at home.

What you were just saying,

Jennifer, in terms of who else is at a show you

may be exhibiting at that is a place maybe you can

find a supporter for you.

You can each support each other and probably best totally separate

and different products.

So you're not competing for a similar purpose,

but you could be supporters of each other in the business

if you don't have a readymade support system like the Kenny

Jennifer team,

I guess I'll say.

Oh yeah.

I mean I learned so much about new shows are just,

what's a good show to go to?

Are I tell people we're a good shows just with my

neighbors or like people down the way that isn't crazy.

I mean become friendly with them.

I mean we talk all the time like new rule text

or Instagram.

We keep in communication,

watch each other's back about good shows,

new shows.

It's great that way.

Super friendly with them cause you learn a lot.

I mean that's how I learned about doing the road.

Doing all these shows all across the U S is from

another person who was across the way I show.

So he opened my eyes to like all these other shows

that were out there.

I had no idea what was going on.

Yeah, you can find a support system out there.

I mean like you can find somebody else who is in

your community that is a crafter and they definitely do not

have to be doing the same thing or even in the

same sort of wheelhouse issue.

And actually I find that it's better.

Most of our friends,

we do have friends that are artists,

photographers and painters,

but we also have a lot of our friends are not

in those mediums.

You know,

their ceramics or jewelers are.

And it's always interesting to get their kind of feedback because

eventually whatever they struggle with,

you will struggle with as well and you will help guide

each other through.

Right. Excellent.

It really is true.

No, I think that's excellent.

So I was going to move on to something else,

but I want to stay with the shows now for a

minute. I think a lot of people think,

well shows is where I'm going to start,

but you guys sound like you have continued and that is

one of the strongest parts of your marketing is just being

face to face with customers all the time.

I would say absolutely true.

I would say that's probably 85% of our business is face

to face and then the rest of it is just people

that want to buy that buy that day.

It show they come back on the website.

Okay, so that's how they're compatible.

I want to get into the Etsy site in a minute,

but that's how they're compatible with each other.

We're going to hear more about Kenny and Jennifer's story.

Right after a word from our sponsor.

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How often are you guys on the road throughout the year?

Oh, we have a calendar,

if you could see it.

It is Mark of a lot,

I would say eight months,

eight months out of the year.

We're out there on the road,

grinding it,

doing the shows.

I would say a solid eight to nine months.

I mean,

and of course everyone's home.

We'll have a weekend off.

I think this entire,

our season started really in like March and from March until

Christmas, I think we have basically about five to six weekends

off. When I say a weekend,

a Saturday,

rarely get a Saturday off.

Is marvelous going to be do?

Oh my gosh.

And now you're in Tennessee right now,

right? Yes.

Okay, so I saw you in Illinois.

Do you guys road trip to your shows?

Tell me the logistics behind all of your shows.

Like what is your life?

Let's just go that.

That's my job.

This is when people are like,

Oh I wish I had a Jen.

Be careful.

You might get start getting offers here.

So there's a,

of course you have to apply for your shows and once

you get accepted into your show then you have to kind

of start your roadmap.

Of course we have to,

because we are artwork,

we ever tent.

We have a walls,

we have a very big heavy set up.

Jewelers on the other hand can pack a suitcase,

rent a tent and rent a table and they can fly

everywhere. It's really beautiful us.

On the other hand we have to log the road miles

and so he booked your hotels and then it sort of

like getting to the next show and you kind of map

it out.

And when we started out,

especially when we do on the road,

we would go from like Texas to Illinois and then to

Florida and then back over to Texas,

which is really not efficient and it was just very wearing

on us.

And so over time you will find out what shows worked

for you or what markets,

I should say,

not necessarily shows what markets work for you.

That's the most important thing.

Say you're in Chicago,

that's great because you're in a huge,

huge market with millions of people that have so many different

tastes, but then say like if you're in Memphis,

Tennessee and you really try to break out into that market,

I think what's important is for you to look at your

stuff and go,

maybe this is not something that's appropriate for not appropriate,

but it's not receptive in Memphis.

It doesn't mean that your product is not good by any

means. It means that maybe it just requires a different audience

and so being flexible to be able to travel,

it does require just investing money.

I think the first year that we decided to go out

and start really going outside of New York,

a friend of ours who's a fellow artist,

he kind of took us under his wing and he was

like, all right,

here's the down and dirty.

This is what you need to do.

And we have been doing this for five or six years.

We were doing like street fairs in New York.

They were just one day off street fairs and then he

was, you know,

he told us like wait there for three or four days.

Like yeah,

yeah. It kind of blew my mind.

And, and so we weren't green by any means,

but he was like,

you know,

I think that you are definitely ready to go to other

places and you're ready to grow your business.

Well, you grew this into a whole different level cause this

is now,

this is both your full time jobs.

Oh yeah.

I was full time for 10 years and years.

Yeah. And you've chosen to up the game by being on

the road a lot too.

A lot of these shows.

Yeah. Yeah.

And some of these shows you have to be invited to

too. You don't just get to apply and go.

All of these shows are Jerry chills at this point.

But it wasn't in the beginning,

right? No.

All of them were.

Um, there's only sort of like,

not those street fairs fairs,

you basically just show up 50 bucks and you show up,

which was fine because we killed it there as well.

I mean your neighbor might be grilled corn never side with

the socks and that's a hard sell when you're selling artwork

for like at the time was like maybe $15 and I

was like,

wait, I can get a rape or some corn or and

get sucks.

What do I need?

Artwork, I don't know what I want to do yet.

But it was weird for the us and probably the customer.

My favorite experience,

there was a woman one day selling Justin Bieber,

I guess it was like the Beaver fever was like a

very much a thing in that year.

And there was this woman who was selling like two inch

little round magnets.

It was basically just a picture printed off and like slapped

onto a magnet and she's selling five for $10 and then

the lady came over and she was like,

what do you mean I only get one for 15 and

I was like,

yes. And she referenced the buttons or the magnets and she's

like, but I can get five.

And I was like,

well go buy the magnets.

Yeah. Good,

good, good.

Yeah. I mean,

but you were learning to write and I'm quite sure when

you were doing the street fairs,

you weren't envisioning where you are now.

No, basically it was just survival.

Yeah. So one thing advances to another and some people might

not choose this lifestyle,

especially if it's not a couple team.

Like if it's someone who's would have to leave their family.

So it depends what you want for your business,

but this clearly is working for you.

Yeah, I think in like sort of like a very,

I guess a linear point.

Basically Kenny made something,

he bounced it off of me.

I was like,

this is great,

you should run with that.

And then he created something and he took it out and

he had validation of this very nice lady and this gentlemen

they bought and if they hadn't bought it that moment,

like on that day,

I don't know actually where we would be and we don't

know who they are,

whoever they are in the universe.

If we can cross our paths,

I'd be great.

Like he had that validation and then it was just repeat

and repeat and repeat for years and we like can,

he was saying we had the luxury of being able to

sell on the street,

but if you don't have the luxury zone,

the street start approaching boutiques,

depending on what your product is and ask them like,

Hey, would you be interested in like having a couple of

cases in your store or go to a farmer's market if

there's a craft section or just something.

There's always sort of avenues for you to get your work

seen by people.

The big thing is it needs to be seen by people.

Exactly. And some people are just too afraid to do that.

To get out there,

I'd say 80% or whatever percent of success is Just showing

up. Yeah.

Yep. So true.

So at what point along your path did you actually formalize

the company?

So register it as a real business to move forward.

2007 Okay.

So were you able to do the street shows without being

registered as a formal company?

So way it works in York you had to have a

tax ID and so once you have your tax ID,

then you were allowed to,

so in certain spots in union square park and other parks

around New York,

but there was a big thing around in Soho on Broadway.

So like,

yeah, there should be like a whole movie written about that

time and those people,

because it was insane.

It was like a free-for-all,

like there weren't any.

Now there's really stringent rules on artists setting up.

You have to be in front of these little medallions,

but at the time like you could go out there and

make some insane money just by just setting up your little

art gallery on wheels Have stool will sell.

Yeah, it was wild.

It was,

I met some of my soul,

my really awesome,

great friends I still have today those men on the street

cause we were all going through this insane experience together like

hanging out but selling artwork and I guess for listeners that

have not actually been to New York and have this like

very weird idea of sort of what we're,

what we're talking about,

right. Think of it in sort of like eliminates Dan when

you were a kid.

It's exactly almost like that's basically all it is.

You just take your stuff and you have like a cute

little setup and you just try to sell something and that

was it.

These are not polished setups by any means,

But it sounds amazing for the sellers and the buyers alike.

Right? Because the comradery you guys probably had together because it

was so casual and then the amazing things.

Someone like me could walk through and discover sounds fabulous.

There's that romance that you hear about and movies are like,

Oh, I went to Paris and then there's the artist next

to the river and he's painting and I bought a charcoal

sketch and basically that's what it was.

That was what was happening in New York.

It was a really amazing like four or five years to

be part of,

because those days they don't exist anymore.

It's very scheduled and it's very constricted.

Right. But the concept behind it,

for those who are just starting today is the same.

So you find a place to validate.

First of all,

you get the courage to put your art out there because

intuitively you've decided it's ready to sell.

Then you find the courage.

You go out there,

you try several times,

not just once you adjust the product if you need to,

you get validation of the product and then you move forward.

Yeah, but you just keep doing it.

Just keep repeat.

Wake up.

Think about what this thing is.

Make it,

get it in front of somebody.

Repeat. As you do this,

over time your confidence will go up.

You will understand who your customer is,

you will understand what your price points,

your market,

your all kinds of,

you'll find out so much in the first year of business

or even not even business,

whatever. If that first from one year of the first day

that you go out,

one year later you will feel like a drastically different person.

Well and noted.

You didn't know everything right from the beginning.

You figured it out as you went along.

No, I knew zero.

I started at baseline zero.

You also,

what I was saying earlier was that when we first got

that sort of like that big push to be like,

Hey, do one up,

like go take this to the next level.

I mean within two months we bought a really crappy mini

van, mini van without a van.

We bought a tent,

we bought panels.

We basically just dropped every single penny that we could scrounge

out and we were like,

well I hope this works out Faith.

You had the faith for sure.

Tell me the story behind the name.

I mean obviously it comes from your last name,

but how did that get figured out?

Yeah, it's a part of my last name.

Cannulas. My dad calls me doula.

I have no idea why,

but he just calls me doula.

It's not having to thing to do with now when an

actually a doula is,

It was your little nickname,

right? Yeah,

well like pet named like dad gave me,

so I just put the two together could do LA and

it's just like a nonsensical fun word.

And these characters are half things like half cat,

half like Fox there bits and pieces are pushed together too.

So it's,

they're fun and weird and name is fun and weird.

So I was like,

all right,

stick to it.

It goes together perfectly.

So that was not a hard part for you apparently to

figure out the name.

No. I remember I was on a job and I was

talking to this guy and I was like,

I don't think my name's going to cut it with these

characters. Can't do this.

It doesn't fit this thing.

I mean I know the artists can have their name attached

to it,

but just to create like for branding or something,

I thought it would come up with a weird word and

I just came up with that.

It's perfect.

Perfect. Okay.

I just want to touch a little bit on Etsy and

how you got that started and we talked for a second

about how you merge the two together in terms of the

shows and then having people follow up on your Etsy site.

marker in time of when you pretty much say that you

firmly established the business.

Yeah. I would say when the NC shock went live,

I may have went like I've been going out but maybe

like a week or two before that.

Cause it was basically no,

it was a couple months.

It was a couple months.

Yeah. And then I think after a couple months he was

just like,

I'm ready to do it.

Let's just do it.

Yeah. Okay.

But so your immediate thought was we need an online presence

as well?

Yeah, for sure.

Like, because Etsy had just,

I mean it was like the beginning days of Etsy.

Those were the great days of Etsy,

right? Yeah.

They were like,

we're friends,

we're like Etsy,

what's that?

And it was like you could buy something someone made in

like Idaho and they'll ship it to you.

And I was like,

what? That sounds awesome.

Okay. So yeah,

I had like maybe 10 items on there at the beginning

and then I remember one time and now I keep making

more and more,

but when I bought like 12 things one time and I

was like,

wait, this guy bought 12 things.

Like that's insane.

That's like I didn't have to go out.

And so that,

that just happened and I was eating dinner.

I was,

you didn't limit him.

You didn't call and say no,

you can only have six.

No, I was like,

please buy them.

Buy more,

buy more.

I have an online presence,

especially in today's like today's world.

I think for me personally as a shopper,

I really ever buy anything like right then and there,

I like to go home.

I like to kind of like think about it and it's

like, do I still want this and now go online and

I'll get it.

But you know,

repeat customers if you're not in the same place as your

customer, you should be able to offer them ability to purchase.

Yeah. I also think when you're at shows the squirrel syndrome,

right? Like maybe someone's at your booth talking to you and

then all of a sudden a friend comes and pulls them

away and they're like,

wait, wait,

wait, wait,

wait. Where they were looking at buying and don't get a

chance to,

but they grabbed your card as they were being pulled away

or tiled need something or whatever it is.

Well we have that happens a fair amount.

Yes. So much.

What does your online presence look like today?

Are you still with that C We have at T but

it's very bare bones at this day now we have a

full fledged website.

We try to direct everything to,

I still like it seemed like the idea of at T

but like,

yeah, it's only bare bones.

If you can only find our jars on there,

you can find the whole rest of our work only on

like the website and the website that you own.

Oh yes.

Yeah. Through Shopify.

Like it's a Shopify site.

Perfect. Love that.

Yeah, because the thing is is that with Etsy,

and I don't know if it's like this anymore,

but when we were growing our online presence,

we were like,

I really want an address,

a web address that is just our business name.

I didn't want ww.etsy.com/could

do law.

Like I really wanted it just to be,

could you lot.com

and also at two used to be an a,

maybe it still is membership only.

So you had to log in through it and then in

that case,

a customer might get distracted by something that's sort of on

a sidebar or somewhere else,

or it's like,

Oh, I was looking at this and now I'm in a

totally different artists section of Etsy.

And so for us,

having the website specifically keeps people really focused on our shop

at that moment.

But at the beginning,

I think having it to you was great because at the

time it was like 20 cents or 25 cents to put

something up.

I mean for like a couple dollars you could have all

your work.

Bring everyone to see that at the beginning was definitely nice

because it was cheap.

Yeah, it's easy to print it up to,

it's easy to put it up.

Yeah, I think you're right.

I think it's a great starter platform even to this day,

but you're really smart.

There's a couple of things that Etsy leaves you vulnerable with.

Number one,

you're not able to attract email addresses,

so if you want to talk to people who have purchased,

how are you going to do that?

Like you're not able to send them any information or anything

when they make a sale on Etsy.

The other thing is what if they changed their rules?

I know Etsy has gone through a lot of transformation since

2007 what if they were to shut down?

This is the same issue that there is with a Facebook

page. If you're relying on selling through a Facebook page,

if they decide to shut down,

you're out of luck with your own website.

Shopify specifically,

I have one of my businesses on Shopify as well and

love them.

You're in complete control,

right, of how it looks.

Jennifer, to your point,

you know what the pages look like and all of that.

Plus you own it all.

You got the information from your customer,

like everything,

so I love that you say that because it's a perfect

example for our listeners.

I will also say just in terms of diligence,

in case anything crashes,

you really should just export all of your contacts.

Just make it a point to do like when you do

your taxes,

like every year,

all your contacts that you have stored in these sort of

online entities.

Just create like an export like PDF or whatever.

Just something to where you have them and print it off

and have it on paper.

Just somewhere in case something happens,

you don't lose everything.

Yeah, just in case.

Yeah, good point.

Very, very good point.

Wonderful. Okay.

We're going to need to start winding down here,

but I want to hear about some type of a challenging

moment for you guys and then what you did to overcome

some big obstacle that you had within the business,

whatever you're willing to share this.

Like which one?

There's a million.

Yeah, there are so many.

I mean it's a very scary point.

Like right at the beginning,

the middle where we are now.

Let's see.

Let me pick something.

Let's do at the beginning because I think that's where so

many people,

they're just afraid to jump off into the waters Leaving my

job. Ooh,

good. Go with it.

Kenny essentially had been going out for a solid year and

a half at this point and was selling at shows and

on the street and various different places.

And he got to a point to where he was like,

I really think that I would like you to help me

run the business.

And I was like,

you want me to help you with your business?

And he's like,

no, I want you to run the business.

I want you to quit your job.

And after about five to six minutes of light riot is

laughter because my job pays our bills and January and February

when there's no going outside in New York because it's nothing

but snow.

It's a nerve wracking idea of just stopping your job.

Having that security blanket taken away and just doing it.

It's sort of like it's ripping off a bandaid.

If you just do it and you really commit to it,

it's over.

It's done.

And you'll know if it doesn't go well or you will

succeed. And most times,

and from that moment on that we've always taken that approach.

We just literally jumped.

We just do it.

And sometimes it doesn't work.

We're still alive and well it's not the end of the

world, but most times if you really fully commit to something,

it will work out.

So Kenny,

were you feeling like there was no way to grow this

any further unless you had help?

Yeah, because where I was,

my idea was I could be selling at this part in

union square and she could go out in another place and

we could have two boosts and almost doubled down on sales.

That's what I was thinking.

Like how amazing it would be to like if one of

us has an okay day,

one of us has a great day,

that's still good.

Or if one of us has a really bad day,

then the other person might have a good day.

Yeah. So I was just trying to do two spots,

just trying to,

I guess double dip and um,

I couldn't do that and I couldn't logistically like start making

the items that I was doing.

Right. Because the more you sell,

the more work you've just created for yourself more.

Yeah. And so is that how you guys started?

Just double exposure then.

Yeah, because at the end of the day,

the more people that see your work,

whatever you make,

the more chance of somebody buying it.

It's all about exposure.

There's of course there's online,

but in person really that kind of takes the cake for

everything because they are not only buying a piece of artwork

from you,

like they're buying a piece of you,

like you were speaking to them,

and so in that moment it is a lot to that

object. When they take it home,

they're taking home that experience and that object.

That's crazy because they tell our story to friends and then

people will come up and they're like,

Oh my gosh,

my friends bought these and they're adorable,

and then they're like,

how was your dog?

And I'm like,

Oh my God,

you know my whole story.

Oh my gosh,

yes. Well,

yes, they fallen in love with you and they're buying now

because it's you too.

You're an overlay on top of all of it for sure.

I know that you guys have divvied up the experience in

terms of the creative and then the history behind each character.

You've divided that.

Do you each then have responsibilities throughout the whole business?

Oh yeah.

Um, so actually the characters did not have any kind of

stories until I started working with Kenny because I had not

created the piece itself.

Being just a sales person,

I was like,

I don't really know how to speak to customers.

I don't really know how,

like I'm not invested in this because at that time Kenny

was just,

he was making this,

this was his project.

And so in order for me to kind of personalize it

and take ownership of in a way that I can feel

confident to sell it to somebody,

I just kind of started making up stories.

I mean,

the characters to me,

because I never saw the individuals that they were drawn after

were always very adorable and precocious and they had these huge

personalities. And when I talked to customers,

I would just kind of like tell them stories about these

characters and it only became problematic,

but in a very good way.

In the end when people would come to Kenny and they're

like, Oh,

so which ones are dating?

And he's like,

Oh no,

you talk to Jen.

She's got all the scoop on the characters.

Yeah. It was like totally her idea,

her brainchild,

which is brilliant because it allows people to connect with them

on a more personal level.

Like they get into the personality of the character and yeah,

it just,

it fully formed them.

It completed them as a whole little guy.

Little critter.

Absolutely. Yeah,

for sure.

They're like her little candidates,

like a little kid.

I love all of them.

I do play favorites even though I guess you have smashes

appearance, but that's what I've been told.

I have favorites,

you know?

But I do love them all equally.

That's so adorable.

I love that.

Okay, so everybody,

you guys have to go and look at all these characters.

What I'd like to do at this point because you have

given us such great information.

I have so enjoyed listening to all of this learning more.

I intentionally told you guys I didn't want to know the

whole story cause I wanted to know and hear it just

as all of our listeners are hearing it.

But now in return I'd like to offer you a virtual

gift. It's not a critter though.

I'm sorry.

It's a magical box containing unlimited possibilities for your future for

what's next.

So this is your dream or your goal of almost unreachable

Heights that you'd wish to obtain.

Please accept this gift and open it in our presence.

What's inside your box?

You're so very generous to give us two tickets to the

Academy awards where we were not renamed for best animated short

and we won.

I love it.

Love it.

Wait, are you saying that there's video in the future?

Yes, that is our longterm goal.

We have some awesome short ideas and I think one is

like heartbreakingly amazing.

We're just,

I think we're just waiting for the time to work with

the right person to make it happen.

You know,

like a Brown,

the critters like bringing them to life.

Yeah. Well what do you mean they are alive right on

the screen and then a little animated short about five,

seven minutes.

Like a,

yeah. So we need to move.

We have short ideas and I mean we have stories working

on storyboards,

but it's a matter of collaborating with the right person to

pitch these things to you.

Like is a Beazer.

They mean the world to us.

They're essentially like our little kids and they live with us.

They travel with us everywhere.

They're very much intertwined in our life.

And you mean somebody's permission to like have them and work

with them?

Kind of nerve wracking.

It's like taking your kids to school for the first time.

I understand that.

I get that,

but I so see that.

I really do.

I know it'd be totally awesome.

Yeah. I'm cheering you on already.

I love that.

I love that Kenny and Jennifer,

thank you so much.

This has been amazing.

I knew I was excited about having you guys on the

show. I had no idea it was going to be so

great. Thank you so much.

I love that you've been here and I look forward to

seeing you guys when you're back in my hometown again in

a couple of weeks.

Thanks. What an amazing story.

Going from just a pastime of doodling on the subway to

create an entire business of critters with personality in life.

I can't help but smile.

You really,

really have to go and see these cute,

adorable critters up next week we'll be hearing from another business

owner who has found the key to getting big business from

large corporate accounts and with the holiday coming.

Big businesses have big budgets to spend on gifts and you

may find just the thing to capture your rifle portion of

this market that's next Monday,

but for now it's a wrap.

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