114 – Product Stories for the Win with Carmi Plaut

You're listening to gift biz on rapt episode 114.

I can't seem to create products without putting a storyline with

them. John Lee,

Dumas of entrepreneur on fire,

and you're listening to gift to biz unwrapped,

and now it's time to light it.

Welcome the gift bears,

unwrapped your source for industry specific insights and advice to develop

and grow your business.

And now here's your host,

Sue Mona height.

Hi there.

It's Sue and welcome to the gift biz unwrapped podcast.

Whether you own a brick and mortar shop sell online or

are just getting started,

you'll discover new insight to gain traction and to grow your

business. And today I have the pleasure of introducing you to

Carmi. Carmi has years of experience designing gift and home decor

for a retailer big box and global distributors worldwide.

He is the co-founder and creative director of smash up studio,

a cutting edge design studio.

They specialize in marketing original repurpose gift and home accessories,

and are involved in all aspects of design,

startup, manufacturing,

and marketing Carmine's newest venture is taking recycled motherboards and turning

them into home decor and art sculptures.

He calls them cuter mugs to love.

Welcome to the show.

Carmi thanks.

Glad to be here.

I'd like to start off,

as you already know,

by having you describe a motivational candle,

because we're all creatives here,

it gives us a little bit of a different insight into

what you're all about.

So if you were to tell us about your candle,

what color would it be and what would be the quote?

I would say that my candle is definitely not your usual

shape, which is a reflection of,

you know,

where I've been in my career as far as designed.

But I would say it's a sculptural shape,

much like a human figure.

And also the colors would probably be heading towards the very

bright colors,

multiple colors,

not rainbow necessarily,

but certainly eye catching colors that are very contemporary,

but most important.

I would say that the light that shines from the candle

would be extremely bright.

It's not a reflection of who I am,

but I would say that the brightness is really a reflection

of kind of creating a sense of happiness when you look

upon the light.

So that it's really a feeling of warmth and inspiration as

far as a quote,

that would go with it.

One of my favorite quotes,

because I started my educational career in college and studying English

and literature,

I was a big fan of Shakespeare.

I always love the quote.

We are such stuff as dreams are made of or made

on, which really talks about being a dreamer and a creator

and aspiring to not just dream,

but to take your dreams and turn them into something really

wonderful, Beautiful.

And I think as creators,

we have no choice,

but to be somewhat of dreamers or else,

how are we going to create things that are different and

unique and totally ours.

We have to envision it all first,

you know,

in some type of a dream state.

And then we bring it back to reality,

Right? And sometimes the dream state is not a dream state,

but it's really a conversation and a pen and a napkin

good Point.

Yep. I agree with you there.

Well, and I have to say,

Carmi no surprise that your candle has all these elements,

you know,

like human and it shines and it's multiple colors because your

creative director after all,

I should have expected that.

Right. I really want to talk a lot about your new

project and the new product,

because I think that our listeners will find a lot of

value with that,

but you have such a big backstory.

Will you go through and tell us a little bit about

your history,

your involvement in the gifting industry overall,

and then we'll dive into your current product after that?

Super. Okay.

So my career is long and very deep,

but you know,

really twists and turns,

but really an amazing adventure for me.

I started in the mid eighties and I was actually signed

on to get into sales management in the hotel industry and

worked for it.

And T and I had a six month break.

And before I started my training after having been a little

bit in the corporate world,

and I took my backpack and went overseas and Asia travel

was just beginning back then and for backpackers.

And after a month through Thailand and roaming around,

I actually met some Filipinos who became very,

very close with and travel with them.

And anyway,

fast forward,

I ended up in the Philippines six months later and was

introduced to my good friend's sister-in-law,

who was silver Smith.

And that was my first factory in that town.

I found a little tree of bells for sale at the

market and my friends who I'd met in Thailand and travel

with through the pilot,

taught me the art of buying and selling.

And we bought a together a lot of different things from

jewelry to rugs,

the sculptures,

and they brought them back to the Philippines.

I brought them back to actually Chicago,

where I live now and sold a bunch of my wares

to the field museum,

which was really my first sale.

And anyway,

one of the things that I bought was a little tree

of bells.

I bought about 50 of these things.

I was really buying and selling just to pay for my

trip back then.

And once I started my big corporate job,

I kinda put all this in the background,

but all of a sudden I was getting reorders and I

was in this big corporate job and nine to five and

working weekends for no money and decided that this really wasn't

who I was.

So I borrowed $10,000

from my mom and invested in a design of my own

making, which was a little tree of bells with soap flowers

and Jade on it.

And I created this crazy story that said,

if you ring the bells of the tree,

what I call the prosperity tree,

you will receive good fortune and health and happiness.

Well, I borrowed this $10,000

from my mom import it about 5,000

of these little trees,

which we couldn't get into the door of my apartment.

I lived in Los Angeles back then and they sat out

in the garage for a couple of days and I quit

my corporate job and started selling it to the hotel gift

store as the people,

some of the people I knew throughout Los Angeles.

And next thing I knew I was on the streets,

so on these things and all of a sudden,

boom, something clicked.

And I was in hotel gift stores and hospitals,

and really selling the product all over the place.

But it was a struggle.

I was still having to work the street fairs.

And I went to my first Atlanta gift show before they

built these new glorious buildings that they have there and was

stuck up in some showroom with a few other exhibitors.

And my first show really wasn't much going on.

And I see this buyer come walking down the aisle who

had just,

I thought gone bankrupt and had owed me a couple thousand

dollars, which is a lot then a lot now.

And I confronted him and said,

Hey, you went bankrupt.

You ordered from me.

You didn't pay for me,

et cetera,

et cetera.

He said,

he had made it up to me and I looked down

at his badge and it said home shopping network,

Oh, No.

Home Shopping network was only about a year old at that

point. And I went to clear water,

sat down with him and we did variations of my existing

product. And next thing I know he gave me a PO

for five containers and we were on home shopping network.

But the best thing he did was introduced me to the

jewelry buyer.

In those days,

there was only a couple of them and she sat me

down and wrote me a quarter of a million dollar order

for what was really one small box of silver jewelry in

the factory that was making my little decorative trees was actually

a silver Smith by trade.

And that's really was my first launch into the industry.

Of course,

home shopping that worked,

tried to cancel the order three days before it was delivered.

And I had the beg and plead,

and eventually I took it,

but I took those funds and use that to invest in

the infrastructure,

my company,

which went for 23 years,

it was called prosperity tree international.

And we had quite a long run.

We were really a company that dealt mostly in gift items.

And then about five or six years into our existence,

we saw the writing on the wall.

We really went into home decor and tableware in a big

way. And luckily for us,

the timing was perfect because China was relatively inexpensive back then

packaging was a little bit of a challenge,

but the thing that they were still able to do that

they're really not able to do now is to offer good

handcraft. In our case,

it was hand painted ceramics at a very,

very affordable price and really high quality.

And we hit a little niche that we really became a

kind of a little cutting edge company,

sewing tableware,

and gift products,

heavy focus on what we call functional art.

That's kind of what prosperity tree was.

You know,

we were relatively a middle to small sized company,

pretty well known in the gift industry for many years.

And I decided as the factories were having a harder,

harder time of manufacturing,

what we were doing,

I decided to make a shift in my own career and

have a family and went into the design side of the

industry instead.

Okay. So I'm going to stop you here because I do

have a couple of questions for you about what you've just

talked about.

Let's go back to the very first product,

that prosperity tree that had the story connected to it.

Did you find that that helped you sell the product?

Now? I know you were in your startup mode,

so, you know,

you were getting sales on the streets or,

you know,

at the shows wherever,

but did you find,

or what your comment on having,

first of all,

naming the product cause prosperity tree is so opportunistic.

I mean,

it's a word that people want.

I mean,

people all want prosperity,

right? But you had a story connected to your product.

Did you find that that added value and helped you sell?

Oh 100%.

My perspective on creating product in general is the storyline.

It's such a crucial side of marketing.

I think I've always been a storyteller.

My teenage daughter will attest to this,

that I can't stop telling her stories to this day.

I think it's a huge part of why people bought our

products. It was a unique design.

It was unique concept,

but I think we took that same concept of creating the

legend or the story and a little tongue in cheek,

but we called it a legend that was created in the

far East,

which really was,

and it was created in my head.

We took that concept.

We really,

we made it happen on a lot of different types of

product. I'll give you another example.

We worked with a project with Disney world many years ago,

creating a product called wish upon a star.

And it was simply a gold star with a Swarovski crystal

in the middle when the nice velvet pouch.

And the idea is that you take the star and you

make a wish,

but an interesting thing that we did with the product,

not only did it fit into their theme,

nicely with wish upon a star theme,

we hooked up with a Make-A-Wish foundation back then,

and we gave a certain percentage of proceeds to make a

wish. And it was a really nice back type of situation.

They appreciate it.

We appreciate it.

And it helps sell the product similar type of thing.

We really love the golfing industry and gift products around the

golfing industry.

We took a real golf ball and we basically painted it

gold or brass looking,

and we put a little hanger on it and we put

a little hang tag that called it the good luck golf

ball. If you get one,

you'll never shoot over par.

Again, we saw thousands and thousands of those.

I'll give you one more example.

We were really trying to do some interesting stuff back then,

we were taking real pine cones and we were covering them

with real silver,

which was really a challenge because a pine cone.

And again,

we weren't picking them off the trees they were falling,

and this was in the Philippines and we spent almost a

year to figure out how to put silver over a pine

cone. Anyway,

we turned into a Christmas ornament and same idea,

created a storyline about the silver pine.

And it was a huge,

huge success for us.

Unfortunately, I was a purist back then and I refuse to

knock myself off,

you know,

there was make it out of resin and I let some

of the bigger companies like department 56 and Kurt Adler do

it for us instead.

And we just kept going on with the real pine cone

version of it.

Give his listeners.

I think this is a big,

big topic and idea in terms of your product as well

and how you can separate yourself from other people who are

making something similar to you is create a story.

Carmine's talking about the fact that these stories didn't already exist.

He had to create a story behind the product,

but it's perfect because then it gives you number one,

something to talk about how your product is different and unique.

Number two,

great source for ad copy.

As you're talking and promoting online or wherever you are sharing

the stories of your product and getting visibility on your product.

So think about this and Carmi just gave us a number

of examples of what he's done.

The other thing that is doing that I think is super

important is if you go back to the beginning of his

story, his journey took twists and turns because he met and

was exposed and was out there and saw other people.

And so by connecting with other people,

the product to the little twist and then doing something else,

being at the Atlanta show,

maybe it's not too bad that sometimes the people owe you

money. Carmi,

I'm not sure,

but you know,

just those little interactions,

but you have to be face to face.

So part of all of this is you have to get

out in public and be face-to-face,

whether it's shows or networking or meeting other people where you

can collaborate such as make a wish,

that type of thing.

I definitely say that as a very valid point,

keep going,

bouncing off of walls.

I mean,

it's a lot of things don't work.

Well, tell us one that didn't give us a horror story

here. So we know we're all the same,

right? We all have trouble.

Sometimes. I want your best Carmi I want the best ones.

You want a horror story.

Once upon a time,

there was a company called Marshall fields,

which I know,

you know,

well, Oh dear.

To my heart.

Yes. And we were,

we had a container of a really,

really neat filigree,

silver angels and wire angels that we had created for them.

And the shipment was late.

It was really late.

And Thanksgiving was coming up.

We sold to instill due to big box,

but mostly specialty stores.

And we had 5,000

accounts that at one point,

anyway, the container comes in late.

Then we pop open the back of the container.

And there's not one single ornament in the back of the

container, but there's probably 15 foot Christmas trees that kind of

look like cousin it from the Adams,

I guess.

So what happened?

They switched up the order.

Yeah. Well they sent our container to Rotterdam.

Oh no.

And we got the German companies,

Christmas trees,

and we had the scrambled and trying to convince a Filipino

factory to air freight.

A 20 foot container to Los Angeles was quite a challenge.

And of course we would have been charged back and we,

you know,

stuck with all these goods and it was all pre-packed and

Marshall's field's name was over it.

So we were desperate and we actually got it there.

We got charged back a ton,

but I think part of the challenge,

wasn't just getting the product there and staying calm about it,

but how to resolve our relationship with the factory after the

fact who we had a pretty good relationship for many years,

and we actually went to Manila,

sat in the Western hotel,

had a big mediation,

you know,

who's going to pay for what to this day I look

back at and I laugh to this day.

I'm still working with that same factory,

which is almost 30 years.

And I'm kind of old school in the sense that I

really like relationships.

Once I find a good factory to work with,

it's much more than business to me.

It's really friendship and trying to find like-minds where we can

sit down and create.

So we all win and make a profit of it.

The venture,

Even though clearly it was,

it sounds like a hundred percent their fault.

You wanted to make sure that however you're going to resolve

it. Each of you stayed whole so that you could continue

with the relationship.

Right. It was a very big challenge because I mean,

we were really talking about a lot of money I'm sure.

So yeah.

And to this day I still would deal with that same

factory in my latest project.

And actually this week we got a shipment that was damaged

And we went through the similar conversation last night.

It's a challenge,

but you know,

we're a little more experienced.

So any advice for someone else encountering the same type of

thing, maybe even on a smaller level,

but where you end up having an issue with a vendor,

whether it's someone who's manufacturing apart for you manufacturing the whole

piece, any words of wisdom here?

Yeah. I think there's a lot of curve balls all the

time being thrown at you,

one of the worst ones.

And I know that there's a big paranoia around this issue

is, is being knocked off or copied.

You know,

how to deal with those issues is very difficult because as

a creative,

we all take this very,

very personally,

it is still business,

but you know,

my advice when somebody copies your product,

unless it's really some technology product or something,

that's very unique that you clear,

you should get some kind of patent or trademark on the

product if that's the case.

But I tend to kind of pass over and move on

as much as it hurts even to this date.

So I think putting things in perspective and looking at the

bigger view is really important.

Sometimes not easy,

particularly when it's affecting your pocket book,

but we all take a lot of twists and turns in

research development and production and bad production and prototyping.

I think as you grow with this business or the creative

side of it and the design side,

we learned to put it in perspective a little more.

I would agree with you.

I have to share with you that when I was at

a trade show and I'm going to be very general here,

cause I don't know what kind of trouble I could get

into, but I ran into somebody who was intentionally walking the

show to find interesting products that they could then turn around

and make in China,

their turnaround time was seriously less than a week.

They could switch up and get things out on shelves in

the U S almost in a week.

Now having said that,

so I think your point is,

you know,

at some point there are some battles,

I guess you just can't fight what I would say though,

for gift biz listeners who are smaller businesses,

where you're the jewelry maker and your love and your hands,

and everything goes into the designs of your jewelry.

This is where as Carmie was talking about earlier,

stories are so important because people can not duplicate you.

The stories you provide,

the personality that you bring to your product,

how you present yourself in your business,

if you're online.

So these are ways that you can somewhat shelter yourself from

competitors because yes,

they could probably make the exact same product,

cheaper material,

but they can't be you.

So something to think about as you move on and don't

let this fear that you're going to get knocked off,

stop you from doing what you're doing.

Definitely, you know,

I think moving it forward and you almost have to confide

and trust in people across the board.

Like a lot of people I don't like dealing with lawyers.

And so I think depending on what you're doing,

the circumstances and the product,

you have to put everything into perspective again,

on how much investment of time you're going to take into

protecting your product,

which is very costly.

I think that,

you know,

I've been knocked off so many times in copying in my

merchandise, in my products and to this day it's still going

on, but I try to keep it pretty low keyed as

far as dealing with the whole legal side of things.

Yeah. Because then you're also then sitting in a place of

really bad energy,

you know,

when you're having to do things like that 100%.

All right.

Well, I know we could sit here and talk about all

of this for a really long time,

but I want to get into your newest product because now

you're doing something fresh and new.

And for people who are just thinking about starting to create

something for themselves,

I think this will be really interesting.

So to refresh everyone's memory Carmi is turning motherboards into decor

and art sculptures,

and he's calling them computer bugs to love.

So let's talk about how this started.

I shut down my prosperity DRI company about nine years ago.

So I could have a life and ended up designing for

bigger gift companies,

some of my designs and let got into the world of

licensing. And I love the idea of upcycling,

which upcycling is a term that's really didn't exist a few

years ago.

It's taking recycled items and turning them into something that is

really a treasured product.

I love the concept of upcycling myself,

and we've actually been doing upcycling for years,

years, and years.

Why with packaging in particular,

you know,

we would take,

particularly we're working in the Philippines cardboard boxes that we would

get from the local Texas instrument factory and recycle those into

our packaging,

mostly because it was affordable.

Now there's a big problem going on with computer motherboards,

which is the inside circuitry of computers where it's really becoming

landfill. And as everybody knows,

the amount of PCs and desktops and all the electronics is

just overwhelming how much they're producing.

And so there's clearly a problem what to do with this

product. We're doing something in a very small way.

So thinking out of the boxes,

I usually do in product design,

this concept of taking a motherboard,

you know,

the term,

that's really a computer circuit board.

And we say,

by the way,

hug your motherboard.

We're cutting them up.

And we are turning them into bugs and then we're putting

them on a post or hanging them on a wall.

So they sit on the desk and they're art sculptures.

But going back to the story,

I can't seem to create products without putting a storyline with

them. In this case,

we're calling each individual bug,

which kind of looks like a real bug,

but not really.

It's really bugs of our own creations.

We're calling them kill a by gigabytes spam,

a lot Iris virus terabyte.

And we tell the story of what we're really doing with

these motherboards.

And in this case,

we took it a little bit further and romance the story

and said that these computer bugs,

if you place them near your computer will act as a

antivirus type of product,

which will hopefully keep the spam and keep your computer as

healthy as can be.

But the main focus that we've got here is green on

recycling, but the bugs are really cool looking.

They don't do anything.

They sit there and they're sculptural.

Although we've talked about maybe in the future,

having them do something,

it's quite a challenge.

I have to tell you in many,

many years of doing production,

this is one of the more difficult things we've worked on,

just because one sourcing the right type of computer board,

making sure there's no lead in it,

cutting it up,

putting it all together with the,

you know,

the metal acetate wings and the beads and the legs.

It's a very involved project.

And we're really just starting to grow the product and scale

it a little bit.

Then, you know,

we're in a bunch of catalogs and hundreds of stores and

really hit a focus because there's a real awareness right now

in the whole green eco category,

which we love being in that being said,

my design eye is really on a whole bunch of other

things going on that is really focused more around trying to

make some products in the USA.

Got it.

Okay. Question that comes to mind for me here.

Are you worried or is there any concern about suggesting a

promise that someone might not think is just a story?

You know,

like how you're saying the bug is going to help you

not have viruses or,

you know,

that kind of thing.

I just want to be careful.

Cause we're talking a lot about stories here that we don't

have anybody get into a problem that they make a claim

that their product can do something that it,

can We frame it in such a way where it's kind

of like legend says,

or this can be a gift of,

we really try to romance it a little more like a

storyline, then it's something that's factual.

I mean,

it's pretty obvious in this case that that can't happen.

I was just wondering the idea was coming up as you

were talking about it.

Yeah. That's a valid point.

I don't generally speak in most people don't bring it up.

I think where these products,

land and galleries,

and we were selling a lot of museum gift stores.

I think people,

when they come into those type of gift environments,

they see a lot of that type of storyline going on.

So yeah,

but valid point.

Okay. So can you give some advice?

Cause you created so many products.

If someone has an idea,

but they have no clue how to get started.

What are the first steps,

maybe three to five steps of what someone should do.

They've never done this before to bring a concept that they

have into reality as a real live tangible product.

That's a tough one,

but I think the first thing,

clearly we all have these notions in our heads on how

do we get those onto paper and get some prototype in

and get pricing and manufacturers first and foremost,

putting it on paper.

The second thing I try to do is to any which

way I can prototype it sometimes depending on what the medium

is, whether it's metal ceramic,

if it's technology product,

it's clearly going to be much more involved,

but lately I haven't been like this all the time lately.

I liked the prototype in the U S if I can,

but there's a lot,

it becomes so much easier as far as trying to source

new ideas overseas.

I love the vehicle of Ali-Baba.

You know,

it's a Chinese manufacturing site,

which the manufacturer and thousands of manufacturers are available where you

can really communicate very quickly with manufacturers.

Of course,

then there's the element that everybody's worried about them stealing your

idea. So the thing I don't like about Alibaba,

because I'm a little old school is I like relationships.

I really like creating relationships with my manufacturers who I can

trust. That doesn't mean you can trust every one of your

manufacturers, Some legal protection first before you would share that piece

of paper or napkin or whatever.

You know,

it's funny.

I met with a toy manufacturer from China recently.

I flew to Las Vegas to a toy fair and showed

them some prototypes they had.

And I just brought them with,

because I figured to have somebody sign a nondisclosure,

it's very difficult to enforce it.

Do you think it gets more of though a kind of

a psychological barrier at least?

Yes, certainly.

I think it's in a very,

very good thing to consider.

However, what I find is that most people are not as

passionate about your product as you are.

Also, I find that most people will not really try to

copy a product until they see this as some kind of

success surrounding it.

So I think that's where the scalability and being prepared to

scale it is important.

But I think initially,

unless they've really got a keen eye,

I don't think most people are going to deal with your

ideas. Again,

it depends on the medium,

what it is,

where your market is,

but I think Alibaba is a good starting point or Ali

express for the China side of things lately.

I've been working in designing some toy products and play houses

out of wood.

It's kind of interesting.

Last October,

I started by contacting somebody who I met on Alibaba initially

had them do prototypes,

which I didn't like,

took those prototypes to Milwaukee,

had a laser cutting factory,

make me some prototypes.

Didn't like their version or prices.

And I ended up in the South of Chicago where today

I just got a quote,

which looks pretty healthy to me and we'll take it to

the next step.

It's kind of been a little bit of a journey we're

into it for about six or seven months right now,

just a prototype and pricing.

My latest obsession again is trying to make something in the

USA, which is certainly a challenge when you're used to pricing

that you get overseas.

Okay. So first you have your concept on paper.

Then you get a prototype done either where you live,

because since we have international listeners,

it could be wherever you live locally,

if you can,

you actually have your product and you buy in some type

of bulk,

whatever the agreement is with that manufacturer,

then what do you do Again?

Usually the prototyping cost money.

Also, most people don't prototype you for free.

So you have to have a little bit of budget there.

And there's a lot of back and forth around that.

One of the things I would highly recommend,

which is kind of an interesting insight when your prototype in,

particularly if you're doing it overseas versus here,

you can get some of these folks in the factories in

China, do some of your design work for you.

It takes a little bit of talking to work together,

but it's a collaborative process,

which is pretty neat,

and it can help save you some time to use them

as an art source,

really for drawing out items.

So what do you do then?

Our world right now,

as far as bringing product to market is pretty focused on

the online world.

You know,

my roots really were in brick and mortar and wholesale into

the brick and mortar world.

Not really involved with retail until recently.

So I tend to encourage a lot of people who I

mentor in the maker community here in Chicago to really take

a hard look at some more traditional venues like trade shows,

advertising, certainly door to door sales.

I mean,

I can't tell you,

this is oddest story.

You know,

Thanksgiving, I was in San Francisco walking through the airport and

Kim crest,

beautiful gallery walked in,

grabbed the business card and many way long story.

I ended up in five different airport stores just from grabbing

one business card and contacting them later on.

Similar story happened to me in the airport in Chicago.

So I think cold calling is a tough way to go,

but I think it's a good way to go.

I think that email communication is really,

really good too.

As far as online sales direct to the consumer,

big challenges,

big costs there,

those are strategic decisions you have to make based on your

product, retail versus wholesale.

Another big decision.

I think that these days,

from my perspective,

staying focused on one or the other,

rather than both at the same time,

as much to my advantage,

I tend to focus a little more on the wholesale for

myself, but I'm not ignoring the retail.

Okay. But especially if you're starting out and if you're a

smaller, don't have a lot of resources.

You're just getting,

going focus on one versus both at the same time.

I think one of the very important key points was I

missed when you first get your ideas and you're going forward

and you're just not sure.

Talk it up with people,

you know,

show it to as many people as you can.

I am constantly constantly doing that,

whether it's with my daughter or my wife or my relatives

or my friends,

you know,

and they,

a lot of times shoot down my glorious ideas,

which never feels good,

but it's just a huge amount of help because all my

experience after all these years,

I still don't quite particularly when you're coming up with a

brand new concept,

like a computer button who knows whether something like that it's

going to sell and you don't really know.

I didn't have proof of concept really until I went to

a local trade show and walked away with a bunch of

orders, We're talking it up right.

As the idea was being conceptualized,

if you will.

And then probably also when you had the prototype,

correct. So all the way along the way,

you don't want to figure this out after you spent all

that money,

at least you want as much of the advantage on your

side as possible by people saying yes,

they think it's a good idea and not people who are

just going to make you feel good and say yes,

people who will really challenge you.

Yeah. I mean,

one of the things that I had a bad habit of

doing early in my career and I've fallen back into it

is, you know,

sometimes we create products and we bring them to market and

we don't back it up with inventory.

And just to see if people will bite on it,

it's less risky.

But you know,

there's a little bit of peace of mind where you haven't

invested all this inventory or time into a project that you

don't think is going to fly.

It's a judgment call though,

too, because part of it is how long is the production

cycle. Right?

Right. But you've got that certain point there that we were

just talking about that,

right? When something comes on to market,

if it's a big hit,

that's when you can get knocked off.

So it's probably very dependent on what the product is,

how long the cycle is to determine,

you know,

how much should you make at first to see if it's

going to work.

And if it does really work and your production cycle,

isn't too long,

then you could reorder right away just because you want to

try and not have somebody knock you off.

Right. But one of the things,

what happens as you grow,

I think that is different when you're small,

is that once you get your channels of distribution set,

you can be guaranteed almost that your existing customer base is

always going to buy X percent.

So that there's much less risk in the old days when

we were bringing in container after container,

and we weren't able to sell this particular pattern or this

particular style,

we had access to sell off to liquidators or a TJ

max or something like that.

So we had a cycle created that would allow us to

constantly turn the merchandise and continue to bring out newer and

newer, which I don't know if that's still the case with

some products.

It's a little stressful,

frankly going that route.

So it's challenging.

A lot of it is based on again,

as you said,

is production time sales time,

this project I'm working on right now with the computer bugs

and huge amount of time to make them use your amount

of time to receive the goods.

So I guess in summary,

what I think you would agree with you,

correct me if I'm wrong.

Carmi is that once you're in production,

then get your plan together,

know what you're doing with these and get working on it.

Don't wait until the product gets there.

Right? So part is the idea.

Then you've got the production,

then you've got the marketing and sales,

Right? And two other major points taking the risk.

At some point you have to take the risk and it

never feels right,

but typically with new products,

but the other big,

big risk that nobody in,

I find particularly people I mentor is they don't really want

to invest money in marketing or traditional ways of going to

trade shows if,

unless they can really help it.

And I agree with that a hundred percent,

but I don't agree with it at all.

I think that it really takes some capital investment to move

forward. And when I say move forward,

move forward more than a snail's pace because some of these

projects, you know,

people sit on projects and ideas for years.

And how do you move things forward?

A lot of times you move things forward with money,

Very good point,

and a great place for us to close this up because

we're going to have to carry on a little bit.

I want to move into our reflection section and Carmi,

we're going to do this really kind of quick because I

wanted you to keep talking about your story because you're just

a wealth of experience and learning for us.

But I want to talk through just a little bit about

you and what you found to help you succeed along the

way. Is there a natural trait that you have that you

feel like you've been calling upon this whole time in the

gift industry,

that's helped you to take those risks and to build all

these products and be successful?

One thing that I cherish is my relationships with customers and

manufacturers. I think really creating that relationship is really an important

for me moving forward.

I love collaboration,

whether it's with my manufacturer,

with my customers.

For example,

I have a customer in Kansas city recently who was looking

at one of our computer angels they're angels that are created

out of the motherboards.

And he really came up with this concept,

Oh, this is great.

Not only as an ornament,

but you know,

maybe this is even better idea for the idea of some

kind of protection type of,

or guardian angel concept,

you know,

surrounding the computer,

his idea,

you know,

we collaborated really quickly.

And next thing I knew I was bringing the product to

market when he was buying it.

So it's kind of an interesting scenario of customers working with

us to work together.

So that we're kind of a team,

although we're really on separate sides.

I like to give back side of things too.

I really think that assigning some kind of giving back to

charity or fair trade,

one of the two,

where you're really helping others with the sale of the product

or with the creation of the product.

And I'll just give you a very,

very quick example.

My mom suffered with breast cancer for many years,

and I always wanted to give something back to some breast

cancer organization or research organization.

And we came up with a product like a woman of

Valor, which is based on a biblical Psalm,

which talked about women and,

you know,

and their role in all the positive attributes of being a

woman. And we put that in our hang tag again,

and we create a really cool,

beautiful design.

And we gave a certain percentage of the sale to national

breast cancer research and national breast cancer foundation.

And I,

without thinking about the marketing side of things,

because we really were talking about,

mostly about the give back,

all of a sudden we just hit a big home run

with people buying the product,

just because of the association from the woman theme to the

breast cancer giving side of things.

I think there's something very,

very wonderful about that.

Give back side of creation and sales and helping people that

really makes doing what I do even more gratifying.

Beautiful. Yeah,

totally agree with you there.

Okay. So Carmi what tool do you use regularly that helps

you stay productive or to create some balance between all of

these products that you're doing and a personal life?

If there is such a thing,

right. Unfortunately having the computer in my phone at my access

all the time is really just a disaster.

First of all,

when you're dealing with China or Philippines or Europe or wherever

you're dealing with the time zones,

always a difference.

So you're always,

you know,

at three o'clock in the morning is prime time to talk

to people.

So trying to wean yourself off of the clock and the

devices is certainly a big challenge Just by nature of your

business. You have no choice almost.

I mean,

you have your phone and your computer going.

Yeah. And I think,

you know,

being an entrepreneur,

I stop,

you know,

I'm always talking it up.

I'm always exploring.

I'm always coming up with ideas in the most bizarre places.

And I think it's part of who you are and I've

kind of embraced it and keeping it away from the family

is a little bit of a challenge.

But I think it's kind of goes the other way around.

They stay away from me.

So when you say,

when your time with your family,

you really have focused on time with your family though.

I mean,

you find the little bites of time that can just be

personal time with family.

I think the one thing I've learned over the years,

the quality of life is an important side of your work

and it can take over your life and it does at

times, but how to engage it back is certainly a challenge.

Right? Well,

and you know,

you have to be able to do some type of balance

or you couldn't be in it for the long haul.

Like you're doing Carmi.

Is there a book that you've read lately that you think

our listeners could find some value in?

I've been reading,

you know,

which is Herman has book about Buddha in the world of

meditation. I don't really meditate,

but I find that it gives me a little bit better

perspective on life.

As I get older,

to calm things down a little bit.

I think that again,

taking a step back about not just treating businesses business,

it's an important feature to how I work these days.

I really like to have a win-win type of environment.

And I love,

love working with people who I really like.

And so,

which is not always the case.

You know,

sometimes we have to work with people and,

you know,

work these difficult relationships and,

you know,

it's all life,

but it certainly happens a lot with manufacturing and sales and

customer service and customer service is certainly an ongoing challenge for

everybody. Well,

and sometimes you do need to meditate and just calm yourself

down and,

you know,

meditation, I think in the whole entree,

you know,

everyone talks about entrepreneurialship these days.

Meditation is,

you know,

and being grateful and all of that are big topics these

days and give biz listeners just as you're listening to this

podcast today,

you can also listen to audio books with ease possibly also

Herman Hesse's book is on audio.

I don't know.

I've teamed up with audible for you to be able to

get an audio book like this for free on me.

All you need to do is go to gift biz,

book.com and make a selection that is gift biz,

book.com. Okay.

Carmi with your creative mind,

I am really interested to see what happens when I invite

you to dare to dream.

I'd like to present you with a virtual gift.

It's a magical box containing unlimited possibilities for your future.

So this is your dream or your goal of almost unreachable

Heights that you would wish to obtain.

Please accept this gift and open it in our presence.

What is inside your box?

I'm going to speak for the moment,

my obsession,

as of latest to work with artists and work with factories

in the U S which is a very big challenge,

but a really wonderful experience for me.

So I that domestic and USA based manufacturing and design to

me just a magical moment to see happen,

particularly after a career where I'm really dealing with mostly international

manufacturing. On the other hand,

the idea that I can help people in a fair trade

environment overseas,

which has really been the case,

mostly in the Philippines,

rather than China.

We're really working with people who are super creative,

don't have the ways and means,

and really helping them move forward to not only just create

products, but really create some kind of community and life around

some kind of manufacturing environment.

So combination of fair trade concepts,

that's really been going on for a long time and also

domestic manufacturing.

So that in both cases,

helping people move forward in a creative spirit,

I have to just say that.

I don't know if I have another word in here,

but I love this podcast.

Oh, you're so sweet.

Take as much time as you want.

Carney. Yeah.

I love that idea of just talking to the people who

are out there about the different experiences that I've enlisted on

this podcast.

I think it's a huge service to help entrepreneur the makers,

the creators,

the developers,

the factories.

I think it's definitely addressing some of the harder issues on

what's going on.

Everybody has some very interesting journeys and listening to this podcast

is just very,

very, very wonderful.

Oh, thank you.

Carmi I so appreciate that.

And give biz listeners,

I will have the show notes page as I do with

each episode.

And if you want to connect up with karma,

you want to see the bugs because they are absolutely so

super cute and everything else he has going on.

Then you'll just go over to his show notes page on

gift biz on rapt.com

Carmi relationships.

Oh my gosh.

You talk about it throughout the whole talk here.

And honestly,

in the end,

whether it's relationships with your customers,

your manufacturers,

now we've created a relationship with everybody who's listening today,

right? So it's all about people helping people.

Thank you so much for all your comments about the show.

I really do appreciate that.

And I love your future vision in terms of fair trade.

And then also getting some production back here in the U

S which would absolutely be fabulous.

And I know that's going to happen.

I wish you much success.

And since you're right around in my area,

I know I'll be seeing you.

So I'll be able to get updated on a regular basis.

I'm sure,

but we all wish you the very,

very best and may your candle always burn bright.

Thank You.

Today's show is sponsored by the ribbon print company,

looking for a new income source for your gift business.

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