338 – Subscription Box Creation and Participation with Eric Musick of Louis and Léa

Gift biz unwrapped episode 338 Subscription industry is like the most

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Here is your host gift biz gal,

Sue moon Heights.

Hi there,

and welcome to today's show.

As I record this,

we're still scheduled to travel on vacation in a few days.

It seems like forever since Michael and I have been able

to be up up in a way on a personal trip

together, we're having to jump through hoops for sure with all

the medical documentation and the testing requirements,

but I'm super excited to travel again,

masks and all.

If you want to take a peek into where we're going

and the highlights along the way,

make sure to follow me on Instagram at gift biz on

wrapped. One of the things I love to do when I'm

in a foreign country is look for interesting ways of doing

business. A change of environment and culture always brings out new

ideas. And I love sharing this with you.

So that's one thing you'll see if you follow my journey

and who knows.

I may even pop on from time to time,

probably some weird hours and internet dependent,

but you never know.

Okay. Today's topic is subscription boxes.

Do you love them as much as I do.

I subscribed to some myself,

receive them as gifts and discover such fabulous new products as

a result.

You know what else I've been doing with these boxes?

I find it's a great way to build up a backup

supply of thank you gifts.

Then they're always ready when I need one.

I'm even thinking about stocking stuffers as we move into the

holidays. Anyway,

in today's show,

we're talking about subscription boxes from two different angles.

The first is on starting a subscription box as your entire

business or a portion of your business.

And then second,

have you ever considered getting your product into somebody else's subscription

box? Maybe you have,

but are thinking you're too small to be able to do

this? Well,

think again,

there's a lot of subscription box goodness being delivered right now

Today. It is my pleasure to introduce you to Eric music.

Eric is first and foremost,

a proud husband and father of five,

beautiful kids,

four boys,

and one brand new girl.

He's the co-founder of Louie and Leah,

which is a subscription box for expecting and new moms.

All products in the boxes are made from small businesses and

local makers.

Eric is also the host of the subscription box show,

a podcast dedicated to the subscription industry.

He interviews the world's top subscription box founders and industry leading

tools. Eric,

welcome to the gift biz on wrapped podcast.

Thanks for having me super excited to be here.

Me Too.

And I told you a little bit earlier,

I do something very traditional as we get started with the

show. And that is to have you describe yourself in a

little bit of a creative way over and above the intro

that we just did.

And I'd like you to do that by describing yourself as

a motivational candle.

So what would that look like by color and quote?

Yeah, thanks for asking.

I was looking forward to doing this.

I've never been asked that before.

Maybe it's because I'm a dude and I'm not that much

into candles,

but we do have a lot of cows around the house.

So I scoured the internet for manly scented candles and different

things like that.

And I found a lot of different,

cool things like whiskey candles and leather candles,

stable and horse,

those kinds of things,

but I'm actually from up in Canada.

So we were surrounded by a lot of pine trees and

forests and evergreens.

So I would call mine Northwoods and had had that kind

of a Northern li boreal forest cannabis sent to it.

Beautiful. And what color would it be Or dark green?

Like a dark green mixed with a little bit of maybe

black and grays,

but definitely a dark green.

Love it.

And how about a quote on the candle?

Yeah, so,

so I love action quotes.

I believe we can have all the information we need and

want, but if you don't take action,

nothing happens.

So I really love a couple of them,

but I'm going to go with,

don't be afraid of change.

Be afraid of standing still.

Oh my gosh.

Seriously, because if you stand still,

you're never going to get anywhere.

So typical with our industry too.

We think of all the reasons things aren't going to work

and then we freeze that's it Analysis paralysis or whatever,

how it goes.

Right? Absolutely.

How do you get yourself out of standing still?

You know what,

just making a list and I'm kind of OCD to some

degree, but I'm also like very easily distracted.

So I think by making a list and only having,

not a long list,

but maybe narrowing it down to three things,

either that's per week or per day,

however you need to do it on big jobs,

small jobs.

But I like to having a list and having just three

things I can do and I like to physically check them

off. Yeah.

You know,

there's something magical about three.

I often talk about three,

two, and you know,

in designing how they always say uneven,

you should always be doing threes.

So there's something about three.

And certainly you're going to do more than three things probably

in a day,

but the top three things and just getting those done and

checking them off.

So excellent.

You started off with a great tip,

Eric. Perfect.

Let's dive into Louie and Leah and talk about how that

got started.

Sure. So Lewin Lael,

like you mentioned,

is a subscription box for expecting a new moms,

basically what happened.

And we have five kids and preparing for baby number four,

we kind of lack of prepared for it.

So we went to the hospital thinking we're already pros and

found out we were super unprepared for even baby number four.

So we love a show called Dragon's end up here.

It's your equivalent to shark tank.

It's very entrepreneurial.

And we're always looking for business ideas.

And actually me and my wife had been looking to do

something together for a while.

Just didn't know quite what I had been in a communications

job for 15 years.

She's a graphic designer for old.

Now it's probably almost 20 years.

So we're looking for something to do.

So we decided to look for a subscription box,

something to kind of like we can get something monthly or

quarterly to help us prepare the first year of the baby.

And there was really nothing out there.

There was a lot of pregnancy boxes or toddler boxes,

but nothing really for that first year.

So together we decided let's do this.

We put together some ideas,

a business plan.

And that's kind of like the birth of Lewin lay is

pretty simple.

Just came out of something we found that was kind of

a hole in a niche that we thought could super exciting

to be part of because that's what we live every single

day. But also just because it's a niche,

there's always there.

There's always going to be babies and there's always going to

be new moms looking for information.

So that's a short version of how Louie and Layla was

born. Not to mention that people are willing to spend money

for their babies,

their new babies.

Oh 100%.

Yeah. For sure.

You guys have such compatible skill sets together.

And I love the part that you're saying you were on

the lookout for something.

So you were kind of scoping.

You had the idea that you wanted to start a business

together. You didn't know what it was going to be.

And so you were both kind of the antennas were up,

right. And then finding it as something that feels a need

and something that you weren't able to find in your life

is an excellent way.

And so I want everyone who's listening here to consider that

if there's something that you're observing as you're going through your

day, that's a whole something missing that you could fill.

It's something to consider as a potential business.

Yeah. And if your listeners are listening and they maybe want

to do something,

but they're not quite sure what I was there for 20

years. So I'm 39 and I started this venture around 37.

So it took a long time and probably like from 17,

18, all the way to 37,

I knew I wanted to do something for myself and I

didn't do it.

And if I could go back in time and tell myself,

what would you do differently to get that idea faster is

just to be super vigilant and being aware of your surroundings,

always kind of looking for signs of something I'm not talking

about, like woo stuff,

just like physical signs.

You know,

you meet someone and get out of your comfort zone.

And to really like,

I was pushing myself to join masterminds that I was not

comfortable being a part of.

I'm kind of naturally a little bit,

it's hard to believe that a little bit more introverted than

extroverted, but getting myself into these masterminds,

going to a conference,

spending a little bit of money on self-development reading good books,

listening to good podcasts.

And I think putting yourself in a position to just have

new experiences will often get the memory or something going to

activate that kind of creative side in you.

Yeah. And maybe spark the idea.

It could be totally disconnected,

but it just does something that triggers the idea.

So one of the,

two of you had this idea and then did it automatically

feel right?

Did you both go like,

yes, this is it.

Or did you have to think about it a little bit?

Or what was that decision point that said,

yeah, we're going to take action on this idea That,

well course Christine,

She's the brains of the operation.

So of course my wife,

Christine, she's the one who came up with the idea and

myself. I was like,

man, that's a,

you know what,

I wasn't crazy about the niche just because I'm a guy

and like babies and pregnant moms,

like what do I know about this?

Right. But what I was excited about was being part of

something that was reoccurring revenue that I liked the business model

behind it.

So Christine was at all the ideas with the creative side

of things and being part of the head of like,

she's a mom of four at the time five now she's

can really relate with these moms and really help these expecting

moms and myself.

I was more on the business side of things.

I really love the reoccurring revenue.

I love the subscription model.

We fell in love with that by watching actually again,

Dragon's den and watching Olivia Canlis,

she's a Canadian subscription entrepreneur.

She owns and founded mailbox.

So if you've heard of BarkBox,

your dog's mailbox is kind of the biggest one for cats

and just fell in love with the model.

So I think it's something right.

You know what?

This is great.

I think we're going to be able to really work well

together. We both have,

like you said,

really different strengths,

but they work well together.

And I think once we kind of figured out that this

could be a lot of fun working from home together and

doing something like we've always wanted to do as a couple,

as a family business,

it was a no brainer.

That sounds very exciting.

Plus, your kids were home.

So this way you could work,

be home with the family.

It sounds like some potentially nice balance balance with boundaries,

right? Because if your business is at home,

that's a whole different show.

Okay. So how in the world do you start a subscription

box? What are your first steps?

What a great question.

If I had a dollar for every person who would ask

me that it's unbelievable.

It's a really long answer.

Like you could expect,

it's not a magic potion does not a pill.

I want to know how you did it.

And then later we're going to talk about how you would

suggest to do it or more of the consulting end.

But so how did you guys get this box started?

Yeah, so we went about it wrong cause you really want

to start the prelaunch.

And we just thought that our idea was so great that

we would just put together some products,

curated products,

which is the fun part of it.

Find some suppliers,

order some boxes.

And we were really focusing on the wrong things.

So we did a lot of mistakes.

I can't wait to talk about how to actually do it,

but the way we did it,

we kind of just jumped two feet both in,

and we did a lot of listening of podcasts,

watching a lot of shows,

reading resources,

online, typical market research,

finding out about our competitors.

So we did do some good things.

We ordered our competitors boxes.

I use competitors with air quotations because I really,

really have an abundance mindset versus a scarcity mindset.

I think there's enough business for everyone.

Even if you're the 50 boxes in the same niche,

I think there's still enough for everyone.

And you just got to separate yourself by doing different things,

right. But anyways,

we ordered some of our competitors and some of the things

we loved what they were doing.

And we saw holes in their game that we could probably

do a little bit better.

So without copying them,

we just use it as a sounding board to,

to see what we would like to do with our company

and how we would treat our members differently maybe and how

we would do the onboarding experience in a continual engagement with

the members.

But quite simple,

you start by having the idea,

you do some market research,

you study your competitors and you try to put together an

email list,

which is huge.

The email is a big part of it.

So if I start creating some content for that and maybe

trying to share the idea with family and friends,

cause you really want to,

before putting too much money in the idea,

you want to make sure that it's validated and that it's

something people will want and people would pay for.

So part of the pre-launch of course is like finding out

how much they would pay for the box.

Do they want a quarterly subscription or would they prefer a

monthly subscription?

Those kinds of things.

Interesting. So I want to go back just for a second

to the whole idea of scoping out the competitors as part

of your research.

I don't really think that's a bad idea because to your

point about abundance,

you're not doing it to copy what they've got going on.

You're doing it to see what's already available.

What might be a hole that you could fill.

So you could add additional value to what's out there by

the inclusion in your box.

And so it's all kind of discovery.

I mean,

look, that's what most companies do anyway.

You're always kind of discovering not to copy,

but to make yours different.

Were you thinking that way when you were buying the boxes

or were you feeling like you were being a spy?

No, not at all.

We always knew like we're never going to be the type

of people that would copy an idea and try to plagiarize

anything. Whether it's the,

for the copy,

the look,

the design,

we just wanted kind of like to see what they were

doing. Right.

Cause we know just by going on the reviews,

some people obviously loved them and you're always going to have

some haters too.

So a lot of people didn't like what they were doing.

So we want to see for ourselves,

not go by what maybe that angry mom that day was

posting about something or the super happy moms.

So we want to have a basis of what we thought

about the boxes and it was more than one.

We studied a lot of different boxes.

It's doing different things,

but as more to get like an idea of how to

do it,

you know,

how does the subscription flow work from the time you press

that order click button and we receive an email right away,

he's confirming the order.

And then did it give us a timeline when we would

receive that order?

So just more like the logistics and the whole experience side

of things cause a huge part of subscription boxes too,

of course is customer experience and some do it really well.

And some do it less well.

Interesting. So good with competition.

I just wanted to make that point for anybody who's listening

to that.

It's okay to do that.

And then I feel like once you know,

that portion of your research,

then you back off and then you focus on your customer,

what your customer wants,

fulfilling their needs versus looking at what a competitor is doing.

Also part of your research was the process.

So completely agree with you in terms of the customer experience,

what types of things were you seeing that you knew you

wanted to improve upon?

Well, there's certain things.

Yeah. I think when it comes to like big companies and

I think as small makers and that's one of the things,

a lot of their products are coming from overseas.

We do that because of their margins and what they could

offer. So we knew we couldn't compete with that.

So what we had to do is figure out a way

to still be competitive,

what hat brings something new to the table.

So we decide to partner with local makers,

small businesses,

hand crafters,

small artisans.

And we found them all over Canada,

U S through Etsy and through just like literally scouring Instagrams.

We knew we could bring a unique take to it.

Like you're not going to be getting the cheapest thing.

And that's not what we wanted as parents of five.

We already know we have too many things in the house.

We wanted quality over quantity.

And the way we could do that is by helping other

small makers as well.

And it just happened to be that when we launched the

boxes, you know,

COVID came around the corner right after a couple of months

after. So it was a real emphasis on supporting local as

well. So we just really jumped on that as well.

And like,

this was already what we wanted to do and having the

ability to now to support local businesses that have that as

part of their flagship statement.

Like, you know,

when you support Lewin layer,

you're also supporting tons of local makers and small craft makers

and small businesses across our continent.

So I think that was a big part of what we

want to do differently.

And we were able to do that with also not having

as many items in the box.

We want to just like two items for baby one for

mom. And it was one additional upsell at mama add-on if

they wanted additionally.

So there wasn't like 10,

15 things because if you've ever ordered a subscription box,

you would know maybe sewer,

your listeners would know sometimes by month,

three, four,

like holy cow,

like I've got too much of this stuff already.

Maybe I'll pause my subscription.

But when you keep having three,

four quality items,

it's easy to keep the subscription going.

Okay. Makes sense.

Let's talk a little bit about the pricing model.

I mean,

I'm sure a subscription that is an annual subscription is worth,

well, I guess it's worth different things.

I guess you would want a mix,

but let's talk about that a little bit.

How did you settle in on pricing and what your offers

were going to be for frequency,

et cetera?

Yeah. So the way subscription models work,

you typically have three main offers and these will vary.

Some people have for some people love to,

but typically you'll see three Eagles have the month,

a month,

which you want to make as unattractive as possible.

And we can get to that in a bit if you

want. And then you want the six months.

So people also have a three month in their prepaid and

then you want the 12 month,

we actually offer a three month prepaid in our gift section.

But yeah,

you have your 12 month,

which is your most attractive offer,

but you also have your discount there.

And then you have your six month,

it's still a great offer with a bit of a discount.

And then you have your month to month,

which you charge basically full price.

The only attractive thing to the month to month we have

for our,

our members is that it does have the option to cancel

anytime. But you pay more for that.

Yeah. You pay more,

I guess the consumer,

especially if it's the first time they're having the box and

they want to try it,

they're paying more,

but then it's less risky because they're only doing it one

time and then they decide from there.

Do you see a lot of people do that?

Buy one box and then later come back for the subscription,

the whole annual subscription,

You know what it's strange in the year and a half

or so,

like, it's,

I don't really see that.

I think most people just go for the more attractive six

and 12 month offers.

And that's great.

That's what you want.

That's exactly what you want because what happens is you want

something called lifetime value LTV.

So your customer acquisition costs are different than a traditional e-commerce

source. So your listeners that they might have an Etsy shop.

It's easy for me to go buy a $15 candle,

a one-time thing,

but it's quite actually harder to convince or to make it

attractive for someone to subscribe to something.

And there's something already going on in our industry called subscription

fatigue, everything's subscription.

You've got a subscription to Netflix,

your internet provider,

your phone company,

just subscriptions everywhere.

So when you're trying to tell someone,

Hey, subscribe to this thing as well,

there is a higher customer acquisition costs.

There is a different way to go about it when it

comes to marketing and advertising this.

So you want to make it as really attractive as possible.

And once you do get them to sign up,

but you want that lifetime value,

you want them to be,

you know,

eight, 12 plus months,

not just one or two months,

that's a huge part to make the actual subscription work is

to have good customer experience,

to keep him onboard,

having these value,

add ons and just so many other things other than the

product that goes into a successful subscription box,

a community.

There's just,

I mean,

it's endless,

but yeah,

you want that lifetime value and that's why,

but those kind of three price structures,

if you go,

for example,

to Louie lay.com,

you'll see that it's a lot more attractive,

a save up to 21% on a 12 month than paying

the regular price at 39 99,

for example,

on a month to month.

Yeah, that makes sense.

I mean,

subscription, you know,

you're saying there's subscription fatigue.

I think I was thinking of it is the other way

is that we all understand and know subscriptions.

It's a way to purchase.

That's familiar to us now.

So I could see it go both ways,

I guess.

But for you,

when people buy the annual subscription,

you're actually making less money off a customer for each individual

box, but you're able to actually roll out and understand what

your income's going to look,

what your revenue is going to look like over the course

of the year,

because those are then committed sales that are happening A hundred

percent and you can forecast a lot better.

Yeah. So we can nerd out on like CPAs,

which are cost requisitions and lifetime value numbers and how that

all works out if you want to.

But I don't know if it's going to be too bored

for the listeners,

but it is a science.

And once you really get into the science of subscription,

it can also be predictable,

which is a good thing.

Right? And your annual subscription is paid all at once.

Right? Some people do that.

We don't,

we let them pay month to month and we make sure

that they know it's on commitment terms.

So does it happen where someone jumps out after six months?

For some reason?

Yeah. I mean,

some people sometimes will do that and you don't want them

to, and you remind them that they've committed to 12 months

and that's why maybe they got their first box for free

and that they're getting 21% off,

but things happen and you still have to be flexible.

It's sometimes it's just not worth the bad reviews and you

part ways early with the customer.

But most of the time,

people stick around for their subscription.

So you're putting the faith in the customer that they're going

to honor their commitment with what they had selected in the

beginning. Yeah.

And there's different things you can test your offers are a

big part of it.

And with subscription,

you have to have a really good offer.

And some people will actually put the free box at the

end of the subscription.

Good friend of ours does this with her subscription.

It's she rewards him at the end.

Now that's a great thing.

You're kind of rewarding them for sticking around for 11 months

and on a 12 month,

their 12 boxes free.

I hope that we're going to renew after that go for

another round.

Yeah, you would a hundred percent.

The only problem with that would be your customer acquisition costs

will be a little bit higher.

So because the offer is not as attractive as your first

box, for whatever reason,

it's the same thing.

But some people do prefer the first box free offer.

And what happens is definitely your customer acquisition cost will be,

your offer will be a lot more attractive if it's the

first box,

but for some reason,

that's just the way it is.

Got it.

Okay. Let's talk a little bit about how your finding your

products. I know they're all local,

which, you know,

you're playing right into what we're all looking for,

supporting small businesses,

reducing the footprint,

all of that.

So what do you look for?

What's important for you as you're searching out and then agreeing

to having products included in your boxes?

Yeah. So I think as long as they're a small business,

as long as there's someone like we call them local makers,

I know there's different words for things,

small artisans,

the way we do it,

we quite like people refer to the point.

Now people actually reach out to us,

which is great to me.

I'm gonna,

we can touch on that later.

Instagram's a big one.

Pinterest Etsy,

Google trade shows past trade shows and looking at who was

there, it was kind of things,

conferences. Those are kind of the big ones we use,

but just using the good old sweat equity and scouring the

internet, whether it's Instagram or Googling different things,

I think is the way we've done it.

Okay. Do you have anybody approach you where it's like,

this is not a fit?

What are you even thinking?

Oh, for sure that happens.

But you know what,

if you're a small maker listening and you're like,

maybe something's triggered in your brain.

And you're like,

I would love to be part of a subscription,

do reach out to subscription companies.

You think that would be a fit because oftentimes it is

hard to curate 12 boxes.

There's so much work that goes into that when people reach

out and it's a fit,

it's such a blessing for us.

And we love it when people reach out because it's not

always a fit,

but you know,

it could be down the road and you're planting a seed

for maybe a future box.

Or maybe we have a network of subscription box entrepreneurs.

Someone reaches out to me.

So you know what,

that doesn't quite work out.

Maybe that would work out next October.

But you know,

if it's a coffee subscription,

for example,

local, but you could say,

Hey, you know what?

This company here,

I know they were looking for something they might dig would

fit. I'll get you in touch with them.

So you can always ask for a referral if it's not

a fit as well.

And we're more than happy to do that.

The subscription industry is like the most friendly community minded industry.

It's unbelievable people work and help each other out with like

expecting nothing in return.

It's just this great kind of a feel with it.

So we'd be happy to help the local makers.

Well, amazing.

Well, we were kind of rolling into,

I told you,

we weren't going to do this,

Eric. And now I triggered it.

We were saying,

as we were talking in the pre chat that we were

going to talk specifically about Louie and Leah,

and then we were going to get into more of the

subscription box overall,

but I've messed the whole thing up.

So we're going to keep rolling with it.

And then we're going to go back again.

But yeah,

I think there's opportunity here for people who have subscription boxes

or are thinking about starting subscription boxes.

And then there's also opportunity for some of our listeners to

consider being a participant in a subscription box.

So let's talk that angle now as a product maker,

is there a certain level I need to get to before

I could reach out and see if there are opportunities out

there? Or how does that all work?

Yeah. It's like the old Japanese saying the best time to

plant a tree was 25 years ago.

The next best time is now.

I say like,

now like a year is no good time.

Like, you'll find your makers.

Here's the thing.

I think people go online and they see these subscription companies.

They assume they're all have 15,

50,000, 10,000

members. A lot of them,

probably the majority of subscription boxes have between like a hundred

to a thousand members.

So you'll be a fit for a lot of different boxes

and there's no shortages of catalogs and places to find them.

And I'd be happy to help them out with that if

they need.

But yeah,

I think you start anytime and just reach out and look

for boxes.

That would be a fit,

certain things you need to know most boxes,

especially if it's a monthly box.

There's pretty small because we want to save on shipping.

You're looking at something of an average of like a nine

by six by three inches,

kind of as like a standard subscription box.

Now, of course there's exceptions.

We need bigger boxes.

So if you have a large candle company,

for example,

and the candles are pretty large,

you might want to consider making a smaller one,

especially for the price point sometimes.

And The weight I'm thinking in the wait for shipping too.

And the Weight,

yes, a hundred percent,

but look at it this way as well.

So as a subscription box owner,

we're going to be paying wholesale for prices.

We need to be profitable,

but you also need to make money.

And sometimes the downfall is that the small maker won't make

a ton of money on say,

you know,

the 500 candles or whatnot,

but you're going to be getting these candles.

And you gotta think about this into the hands of your

ideal customer.

And this is a thing where you might want to I'll

include them with that,

a special deal just for those members for those 500 members,

maybe it's a card that has a referral or some kind

of link that they can go and visit and get it

just a discount just because they're members of that particular box.

And this is way to get a future sales off of

it. But it's also a way to get into the hands

that maybe that person won't have it,

but it's a sharing thing they can share with a friend

or just get really creative on how to add as much

value for the members because subscription box entrepreneurs want value,

not just product.

So are you saying that then we might even label the

products a little bit differently or is this promotional material that

would go with the candle?

Great question sometimes,

or you're going to get a no on your actual product.

And if you do have a product,

I wouldn't say your product has to change the labeling because

if it's a subscription box,

that's supporting a small maker,

they want to highlight that maker.

In our cards,

we include a special column on a cart just about that

company. But sometimes we say no to companies.

It's not a fit because maybe our products are all curated

for the year.

But what we say was we're always looking for a featured

company. So we'll have a four by six card.

It's just an informational card about a featured company we're going

to use in it's.

For example,

our August pugs feature company happens to be a candle company.

It's called colon Canary.

It's a local maker here in Canada and they did not

fit the requisites to fit in our boxes because of price

point and size and weights.

But they had a cool four by six card,

very well high quality card that had promotional material in there

just for the members that they can order and have special

discounts for the members.

So that would be great for someone who has either a

higher price product potentially,

or heavier,

as you're saying.

And then do they pay you to be included in the

box? No,

they don't Because you're not buying their product.

You're including the card Pay for the card.

That's the only thing.

Yeah. So they would pay for the card and they have

a delivered,

whether their jeans are printing through a local printer or Vista

print, it just gets delivered to our door.

We get our cards,

we put them in there and then we make sure to

cross promote.

And what's great about this.

You got to think of the other thing is that the

subscription box will be promoting this on their social feeds and

on their blogs,

a lot of subscription box up connections with like Forbes or

these different high quality resources for people that read these things.

It's another way to just get out there in front of

a bigger audience.

And sometimes there's backlinks that we'll have involved.

So on our website,

we might talk about on the blog about this,

all the companies,

this creates back links,

which helps with your long-term SEO.

It's endless the benefits of partnering with a subscription box or

even starting your own.

Okay. So I just want to be clear,

make sure I've gotten this right.

So if someone was going to send you a card,

they're paying for the production of the card,

they're getting it to you.

You're not charging them at all for it to be included

in the box or promoting over all of the box.

And for you,

that's increasing the value of the boxes because here's another source

of product that you're showing,

right. But there's a little bit of production cost to that

because you've got your whole production line.

When you're making the boxes,

you're putting it into the box,

you're making sure it fits properly,

et cetera,

et cetera,

but they're not being charged for any of that or the

promotion overall,

is that right?

No, that's right.

It's just for us,

the way we collect.

So like for colon Canary to be part of our subscription

box, it was great for them because it just costs them

whatever. It was a couple hundred bucks in printing costs.

And now they're going into hundreds and hundreds of these ideal

customer's hands with a specific exclusive.

And for us,

the pro is that our moms are getting just an exclusive

deal just for them.

It's tailor made.

And we make sure that the card has the code is

Louie and Leah 15,

if it's 15% off or whatever it looks like.

Right. So that it's very exclusive just for them.

So these are exclusive benefits for the members.

So they feel special about that.

And it's great for the company.

The only thing I would say is before you start printing

the cards,

make sure you're communicating with the subscription box owner or whoever's

in charge their production team to make sure that the graphic

design on the card is a fit.

For example,

if you're not a graphic designer and you put something that's

quote unquote,

pretty enough,

they might be disappointed and not wanna include that card.

So just make sure you're on the same board and some

subscription box companies like ourselves.

We'll make sure that we'll do all the graphic design work

for you.

We'll put the car together and we'll send you the vector

files or whatever,

how it is.

And my wife would do all the terms there.

She'll send back over the files and then they can get

them printed because we want it to have our look,

our brand,

and that's important for most subscription boxes.

So just communicate that through with the owner that you're speaking

with Really good point,

because you talk about experience too.

You know,

it's not just the experience with emails,

but it's the whole experience of when you receive the box

and you open it and the aesthetic that you're bringing forward

the whole way it looks.

So I totally understand what you're talking about with that.

I still don't understand Eric,

how do I make contact with these people to possibly be

part of a box?

Where do I find out who they are?

Am I going to send them emails?

Am I going to direct message them?

What's your suggestion here?

Oh my gosh,

I love subscription boxes so much.

And it's so fun to get the behind the scenes here.

Wouldn't it be exciting to see you in a subscription box?

Let's check out the potential for that,

right after a quick break to hear from our sponsor.

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Yeah. There's some great tips here I have for your listeners.

Okay. So first of all,

the one thing it's going to be work,

you're going to have to do some work.

You're going to have to look and scour the internet for

potential subscription boxes that are fits.

Keep in mind.

If you're a smaller maker,

the first ones that come up on top of Google will

be probably some pretty large ones.

So you might want to go to the bottom of page

two or something,

and you'll really find some niche stuff.

My subscription addiction,

Cratejoy marketplace have a lot of ideas for boxes.

You have a lot of smaller makers there as well,

but you're going to find something Instagram can do keyword searches,

look for hashtags,

subscription boxes,

those kinds of things.

LinkedIn have a lot of owners,

but first thing you want to do is go with what

the provide you with in the first place.

So email,

usually there's a contact us page.

If there's an email,

hello at Louie and Leah,

for example,

you want to use that because that's what they gave you.

So that's where they probably want you to use first.

Now there is something called gatekeepers in most subscription box owners.

Sometimes that's just a husband and wife team or a couple

of friends that have a box together and that'd be,

might be one of them.

But nonetheless,

you have to get through that first gatekeeper,

whoever is going through the emails to get their attention.

One of the things you want to make sure that your

subject line is something kind of catchy,

whether it's something like,

you know,

interested to be partnering with your box and we'll bulk order

inquiry, those kinds of things will get the attention,

potential partnership,

those kinds of things.

And the email might or might not get read.

Now, if the email is not successful,

if you can find another way to get ahold of them,

you can try DM on Instagram.

Every subscription box has an Instagram account and you can DM

there if that doesn't work or it's taking longer than it

should. A great tip here is to do a video and

you have to get maybe out of your comfort zone for

this, but it works.

Trust me,

because it will separate you from the masses.

Just do a simple video,

say, Hey,

this is Eric from Lewin,

Leah. We make candles.

And I think we'd be a great fit for your box

because, and give them a reason because,

so it doesn't look like you're just sending the same message

to everyone and tell them why you'd be a great fit

and just keep it really short 15,

30 seconds,

and then thank them in advance.

And that's another great tip.

Always put thanks in advance.

So it has kind of this subconscious open loop that it

leaves into the mind of the person reading it,

that they want to close that loop.

So they want it to fulfill that.

Yeah, videos are great on DM.

LinkedIn's another great one.

A lot of subscription entrepreneurs are on LinkedIn because of networking

purposes. And if you can't get through the,

let's say the hello at Louie and land,

oftentimes just by doing searches on LinkedIn,

Google or Instagram,

you'll find the name of the owners.

We might even have it in their about page.

So in our case,

it's Eric and Christine.

Well guess what?

Most subscription blocks entrepreneurs are just like Nene,

Christine. So what did we do when we created our website?

We have the hello.

Yes, but we all have Eric at Louie and Leah,

Christine at Luna.

So if you find the name of the company and then

you can find their owners names,

use their name at that company,

most likely that's their direct email.

And you can bypass all the gatekeepers and just get ahold

of them directly.

That's a great tip and worst case.

It just bounces back to you.

So no harm done,

no harm,

no foul,

Exactly a hundred percent.

And the last thing would just be again,

I just want to emphasize on do not mass email,

a hundred different companies.

We know when it's a mass email,

you know what,

when you get a mass email,

right? Like everyone knows Because of the wording in the email.

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, I'm also thinking you need to be careful because what

if you get accepted by a number of different companies,

all at the same time for production purposes and all the

logistics around it,

but getting back to these emails for one second,

would you suggest that you say just really quickly what your

business is,

but then also offer up the specific product that you think

you'd like them to consider.

So you make their work really easy.

Yeah. Quick intro.

Don't go into a long story.

No Whole resume,

huh? No resume,

please. Honestly,

that like networking,

one-on-one like,

you want a really quick intro and maybe have a link

where they can find out more about you.

So if they are interested,

let them do it.

They don't need to see your whole resume there,

but then tell them what would be the fit,

why you're reaching out to them and potentially a product you

had in mind.

But you're open to suggestions.

You're someone that's easy to work with.

That's the best thing.

And because if it's not a fit again,

and we'd be happy usually to refer or down the road,

come back to you again.

Right. So just make it always a great positive experience,

no matter what.

So on your end,

do you map out the different months and what the overall

theme of the box is going to be?

So if I was bringing you a product,

you were referencing this a little bit earlier,

you could put it in any box.

It makes sense for you.

But do you ever share with people what your planned schedule

would be?

If you have themed months?

We definitely theme our months.

Like for the summertime,

it was very summertime,

like bringing,

going to the beach,

kind of a feel for the moms and also things that

they can bring with them on picnics and outings,

most boxes have that kind of thing.

But yeah,

I think it's,

we would share that with our clients.

We were like,

Hey, you know what?

Like you're a candle maker and you're thinking,

you know what?

Candle scent would be a good one.

Well, fall is a great time for algebra candles around Christmas

times, we will try to maybe put you in,

in the fall box.

So right now,

if you reach out to them in spring,

that might not be a fit.

Maybe it is,

but we might consider you in the fall.

So keep that in mind.

So if they say to reach back out to them,

put a note on your calendar to reach back out to

them whenever they tell you to.

And if it's a no,

which is okay,

because it's nothing personal.

I always see this in Anissa was the same with my

suppliers. Or if I'm reaching out for someone to come on

my podcast,

I don't just finish it at a no,

I'll keep the conversation going by saying,

Hey, no problem,

Sue. I understand it's not a fit at this time,

but would you mind if I reach out to you in

two months and they'll say,

I've never had someone say no to be first off.

But the only thing I make sure is because you know

why they say they don't mind is because most people won't

do it.

So make sure soon as you say that in that email

has been sent and they say,

no problem,

put in your calendar,

put a reminder,

a notification that in that two months,

you're seeing that email again and reply to that email so

that it kind of brings them back to the whole conversation

again. Oh my gosh.

Excellent. Excellent advice.

Cause you're so right.

So many people will say that and then never heard from

again, Never.

They never,

they never,

so when you actually do it,

it blows their mind and I'm telling you,

I do it all the time,

especially for when I'm reaching out to podcast guests and it

blows their mind because they're like,

whoa, what?

Like he actually came back to me two months.

Oh my gosh.

Well, and I think also for people who are a little

hesitant or uncertain about their product,

my guess is Eric,

that you appreciate people reaching out because you don't want to

always have to be the one that sourcing the product.

If great products come to you,

that's helped you with what you're supposed to be doing.

All the coal lighting.

So you're almost giving them a gift by offering up the

product, Listen,

small makers out there.

Okay. We love it when you guys reach out to us.

So do it,

do it.

It's a blessing.

Yeah. Just do it.

We love it.

It just helps us tremendously to curate products.

We have so much on our plate already.

This is just like a gift.

When we get done people reaching out to us with the

proper and the right fifth.

Okay. So you've accepted my product now what happens?

Yeah. So we'll have a contract on how payments.

So some subscription boxes will pay after the shipment is done,

or once the product has arrived,

some people will do 50% now,

50% after reception.

And then usually you can negotiate on these terms as well.

We have like set terms,

we'll pay 50% upfront and then 50% after everything's all been

completed. And the reason for that,

if you're wondering,

why do they do that?

Well, it's because as subscription box owners,

we only get paid once a month.

Right? So for us,

we get paid on the first of every month.

So we tell people we'll pay you after that.

So, you know,

between the second and the fifth,

you'll get your money because it's kind of like a net

30 terms basically is what it is.

Because once that invoice comes in,

that cash flows back into pay our suppliers.

So that's what happens.

So once those financials are taken care of,

which is not a big deal,

you want to start talking about deadlines and whatever you say

on your deadline,

you know,

always under promise and over-deliver and things happen.

I get it.

Maybe, you know,

your material didn't come in or a certain ingredient wasn't near

in time.

Be honest and open with them because what happens,

this has happened with us.

Those, I think a typhoon in China and one of the

local makers was waiting on.

She was making these hands and something didn't come in time

enemies. And she was very honest and were like,

thank you for letting us know,

we'll move your product to never the month.

We'll just do a switch with another one and everything worked

out in the end.

But if she would have tried to just say,

yeah, it'll be here on time.

We would have completely botched on center boxes late.

So always under promise and over deliver and just be transparent

if you can't provide enough candles.

For example,

you know,

in your mind,

you'll only be able to do 750,

then suggest that you know what,

that's not a problem.

I can still,

I have this other friend.

She makes candles and we can maybe partner together and make

So just be transparent.

Oh, interesting.

So you would do that with your box.

I'm thinking maybe the larger ones might not where they do

similar product,

multiple makers in the product.

I never thought about that before.

Oh, a hundred percent.

Like a lot of small makers,

maybe can't put together 5,000

but just bring the answers to the subscription entrepreneur and tell

them that why that would work and why it should be

beneficial as well,

because you're getting two companies for the price of one almost.

Right. Okay.

It brings up two things.

I want to ask you about first off as a local

maker, let's say I'm right in the area.

Would it be valuable to you?

If I were to say,

look, if ever you run into an emergency and you know,

you need to fill a box because something's happened with your

scheduling or delivery or something,

I'm right down the street.

You can always use me as a backup.

Would that be valuable?

Totally. Yeah.

We actually have a couple of companies like that,

that we use that are always top of mind,

if something should happen or we're short,

what happened to disorder?

It was short again,

they maybe they over promised,

well then we'll use them to fill up the rest of

the quarter or whatnot and something to keep in mind that

when reaching out,

you don't have to go across country or international.

Look in your own city.

I know some people are rural,

but Eudora is a major city close to you at some

point. And just look there just probably dozens and dozens of

subscription boxes just in your area.

And that you can get attractive to them by being something

you're you can deliver yourself.

So they save on shipping and just increase their margins and

bring better value to them as well.

So I think we personally will always,

of course you won't be in their box every time,

but just think maybe local first and try to start there,

get a grasp on how it is that experience with subscription

boxes and then Canada go from there.

Yeah, no,

I think that should be the first step because it's the

easiest relationship to establish.

And there are additional benefits just by the proximity,

for sure.

Like, let's say one of the products comes and one of

the boxes is completely broken.

So even though they sent them right.

A number of product,

some of it's damaged and they need to backfill for the

boxes. So how does your deadline work for production purposes?

Do you have a hard stop of the point where you're

accepting product,

because then you've got to be putting these boxes together.

Yeah. And that'll all be discussed in that initial conversation with

both the transactions and stuff saying,

we need this.

And some people will say,

especially if it's a smaller box,

they might be like,

well, we might need 200 products,

but we'll for sure need 150.

So you can start on those 150.

Let's get them ready by the 15th.

And then every week I'll give you an update.

So it's sometimes like,

because their members are growing,

you know,

if it's a new company,

so just be transparent,

whatever it is,

just have that conversation.

But there is always a hard stop.

So for example,

we bill on the first we ship out on the 10th.

So we know that our shipping week starts on the third.

We start packing from the third to the 10th because on

the 10th of the road.

So we tell them you haven't until the third,

but we'd appreciate it.

If that was,

at least half of the quarter was done mid month prior.

Okay. That makes sense.

And so how do you manage that then with new subscription

orders coming in,

even past your deadline?

Yeah. It's just forecasting and what's great about that is that

you can just easily put a sold out sign on your

website, which causes like big time.

So yeah,

it happens,

you know,

inventory is honestly one of the hardest things maybe other than

shipping to control in subscriptions because your numbers should always be

going up.

So you have to forecast that,

but you'll always have excess inventory.

It's great.

If it,

we have one,

we have excess inventory.

Cause most subscription companies have a shop.

So for us,

we'll have past boxes or we'll put together the best of

we'll have certain promotions.

So that candle that you're making for that box that maybe

was in the September box.

Well guess what,

it's probably going to be also on the website.

So you're going to get more exposure there.

It's probably going to be going into a past box.

It might be going into a future production.

If there was like 50 extra candles,

you might be going into a free gift offer down the

road and still promoting your stuff.

It's really,

there's more than just that one month.

You're going in.

Think of it as a long-term relationship and a longterm kind

of plan as well.

That's something I didn't know about the boxes.

That's really interesting.

Is there an average churn that you will see?

Oh yeah.

10% is kind of industry you don't want.

Well, you're hopefully lower than 10%.

10% would be like the standard.

If you're higher,

if you're churn.

And for those who don't know what churn is,

that's the people leaving your subscription.

So for example,

if you're a hundred people are coming in every month,

that means 10 are leaving as well.

So you've got a net 90 on your memberships every month.

So you want to be below 10,

you know,

most good companies have anywhere between three and 6% up to

eight, maybe 10 being kind of like you want to be

under 10,

but not probably at 10.

It's a good,

safe forecasting number.

All right.

Really interesting.

Okay. As we're getting closer to the end here,

I want to swing back to another important point for,

well it's really for both sides,

but that is how do you attract the first customers that

you're bringing in?

So when you first started with Louie and Leah,

how do you get the word out?

I know you started talking emails,

but talk through the whole process there.

Yeah. It's all about getting some excitement.

So there's two things you want to probably do.

There's more than two things,

but the two things for sure is Canada,

make it fun and gamify it.

Someone might win their first three months subscription or a six

month subscription,

or maybe just their first box,

but make it fun,

make it attractive for people to want to sign up and

have great free resources.

So the exchange for that email is going to be a

great piece of content you're going to put together or multiple

pieces of content and hopefully,

but for sure,

one great piece of content that's free that somebody would want

in that niche.

So for us,

we had like the ultimate packing checklist to get to the

hospital. We had the secret,

every new mom needs to know.

So these are like kind of great things that they want

to know.

These things.

We know they're looking for them anyways and we're giving it

to them for free.

The only exchange is the email.

And on top of that,

when they put that in,

they get to that landing page is that they get to

maybe potentially also win a subscription.

So now they're excited about the content.

They're excited about this box.

We're exchanging the email and that's kind of how you start

this, the little wheel to have subscription boxes.

And I'm Thinking you're throwing some money at ads to get

out there for people to see this so that you can

collect the emails.

Yeah. If you address your small maker and you have an

existing audience use that first use family and friends as sounding

boards as well.

The thing is,

don't take this wrong,

but don't take the family and friends advice too seriously,

especially if they're not dry ideal customer.

So some people are like,

Aw man,

all my family and friends really did not like my box

idea. Well,

are they your ICA,

your ideal customer avatar is this who you're wanting to sell

to you?

If not go to those people for us,

we went to birthing centers,

went to see doulas,

going to see places where moms hang out and just ask

them, put together like a fake box,

almost like,

would you be interested in this?

And how much would you be willing to pay for it?

So that's part of the market research.

We're backtracking there,

but you want to start with your family and friends for

sure. But don't take that too seriously if you have an

existing audience.

Great. That's also good.

But yeah,

paid ads is don't be too intimidated with paid ads.

It's not that difficult and you don't need to spend a

ton of money.

It's just enough to get that creative piece of content into

the hands of potential ideal customers.

So now you've learned so much,

you've started a podcast and now you're starting to help people

with their own subscription boxes.

Right? Tell me more about that.

That's exciting.

Well, my passions are of course being a husband and father

first and foremost,

like you mentioned off the top,

but subscriptions is what I do.

So the subscription box,

Louie and Leah,

this is what we do full-time but my other passion is

my podcast.

This subscription box show.

So I started this because like I'd mentioned off the top,

I love podcasts and books as a way to learn.

But in the beginning there wasn't too much.

When it came to subscription only podcast,

there's a lot of e-commerce podcasts,

business podcasts,

but there wasn't nothing really subscription specific.

And if there was,

it was biased,

maybe it was done by an agency.

Maybe it was done by a specific someone who had something

to profit from.

I just wanted to put something together that was unbiased and

that anyone could learn from,

especially if they're starting or thinking of starting or looking to

grow their own subscription box.

right smack in the middle of COVID and a year.

And a bit later here we are,

I guess,

a year and a half later we've got 178 episodes.

We publish two shows a week.

One is an interview style where I interview some of the

biggest founders of the world's people like my personal hero,

Olivia Canlis from yell box.

She's been on the show.

So that's come full circle.

And she's one who inspired me to start my subscription box.

Right. But also on,

on Fridays I have something called focus Friday,

where I focus on a specific,

hot something that's current in the industry.

So current affairs kind of a show,

very short,

15 minutes just focused on something that would be beneficial for

the listeners.

And yeah,

so it's just to help other people who want to start.

So if you're listening to this as a small maker,

and you're thinking about maybe partnering with subscription boxes,

or maybe even starting your own,

definitely have a listen to this subscription box show.

It's going to be a,

you're going to love this.

It's a lot of fun to do.

And it's all about giving back.

Love it.

Absolutely love it.

And I do know a couple of subscription box people who

are listeners.

So you're going to pick up some listeners for sure.

No question about it.

What do you see moving forward?

What's your vision?

And as the months and years progress here.

Yeah. So What's happened.

Well, the unbiased thing again,

what's happened is just the,

again, the network in the community subscription boxes is so amazing.

I've actually been able to partner and be an affiliate with

some courses.

So I'm going to continue doing that.

So if it's something specific you're getting really serious about starting

subscription box,

the podcast is the best free resource for sure.

But there's also some paid stuff there you can get as

well. There's three different courses on the site.

If you go to the subscription boxer.com,

you can see more there under the programs tab.

I'd be happy to answer any questions,

pure listeners on those.

So I'm going to continue to dabble with courses that I

find beneficial and I've taken all of them by the way.

So I know what they're all about.

So I only promote things I know would help you.

And there are ones that wouldn't others that wouldn't.

So I always do a free consult call as well.

And that's not to sound salesy if you just go and

just want the free stuff on this site,

go for it.

And you listen to the episodes,

but if it's at a point where you need some help,

there are other resources as well.

So we're going to continue to do that.

The future of the podcast,

I think is bright in that sense,

maybe eventually doing some kind of mastermind,

I think would be down the road.

Something I'd love to do.

If you guys have ever been part of a mastermind,

you'll know the benefits of those,

especially if you're in the right one.

And I think there's a great opportunity there for the box.

We're just going to continue to grow.

I think the goal for every box is to get to

a point where you disrupt so much that maybe one of

the big companies wants to buy you.

I think getting acquired and then maybe starting the process all

over again would be great.

I think that's kind of the future of the podcast,

but Louie and Lee,

as well as growing tremendously.

And I think it's just such a great niche who knows

where the future holds,

but when it comes to those things specifically.

Yeah. That's where I see it.

Yeah. Well,

it's exciting.

And I can just hear the passion in your voice as

you talk about it too.

So that's amazing.

And you're so generous today because you're offering us up a

couple of gifts here,

things that we can take advantage of.

Well, first off you already were talking about the 15 minute

consult, so that's available and then how would they get that

15 minute counseled?

You know what,

so reach out to me,

either at Eric at Lewin,

leah.com, Louie L O U I S and the N D

Lee L E M French Canadian.

I don't know if you pick it up in the accent,

but Erika dot com or eric@thesubscriptionboxshow.com.

And I'm sure you're gonna have that in your show notes,

but very easy to get ahold of me on LinkedIn,

as well as Eric music and music is just like,

it sounds except at a K at the end.

Perfect. So additionally,

if you are interested in any of the courses that Eric

offers, he will also share with you eight,

10% discount on any course,

and I'm sure if someone gets to that point,

they can also reach out to you and understand how that

they would take advantage of that.

And then also for any new moms or grandmothers,

because I'm sure this is also a big part of your

audience. Grandmother's sending boxes.

You've also so generously offered a 15% discount off anything in

your shop,

including the boxes.

Yes. A hundred percent yet.

Just use the discount code here.

I think I put gift biz unwrap that as the discount

code. That is amazing.

It's very generous.

Thank you so much for that one final piece of inspiration

from you to anyone who's considering starting or participating in subscription

box. Yeah.

Just take action.

I think just start reaching out.

Don't be afraid to take that next step.

I think people get caught up in just analyzing to the

point of like they get stuck and almost have a self

defeatist mindset.

Just get out there.

And if you're unsure what you want to do,

just get into as many things as possible to get the

creation flow going.

Yeah. Just take some action and reach out.

I think,

you know,

if you're just want to dabble from like an outsider's view

and just kinda like see from behind the scenes,

what's happening,

go to Facebook groups.

They're fantastic.

And there's a ton of subscription.

Facebook groups,

mine included the subscription box.

Will Facebook group find that niche?

It doesn't have to be that one.

Just find a niche you're into this,

give me a subscription box for that.

And it's going to be a Facebook group for that.

And just kind of like hide in the weeds and kind

of see what it's all about.

And eventually as your comfort grows and I'll step out and

ask questions and don't be afraid to reaching out.

People love it.

If it's a trade shows,

go to them online events,

go to them and just really make yourself present.

And trust me,

we want your products in our boxes.

So if you're a creator,

a small maker,

just find that perfect fit and there's a ton of them

out there.

It's an amazing opportunity on both ends.

Eric, thank you so much for being on the show and

sharing all of your insights,

experience, learnings,

and support for the industry who appreciate you.

It's been my pleasure.

Thanks you.

Thanks for having me.

I wish you could see me right now.

I am bubbling with excitement about you considering being part of

a subscription box.

Are you feeling the same way?

It's an entirely separate profit center that I bet is untapped

for you right now.

Seriously. If your product would fit into a box,

go research some of the local ones in your area and

reach out to them.

You have all the information you need to make this happen.

It's only up to you to act upon it next week.

We'll be hearing from a repeat guest.

She's going to share some of the new sales and visibility

activities that have come up recently.

I specifically wanted to bring her back as an example of

how a still relatively young business can expand when you have

your eye out and say yes to opportunities.

Thanks so much for spending time with me today.

If you'd like to show support for the show,

please leave a rating and review.

That means so much and helps the show get seen by

more makers.

So it's a great way to pay it forward and now

be safe and well.

And I'll see you again next week on the gift biz

unwrapped podcast.

I want to make sure you're familiar with my free Facebook

group called gift is free.

It's a place where we all gather and our community to

support each other.

Got a really fun post in there.

That's my favorite of the week.

I have to say where I invite all of you to

share what you're doing to show pictures of your product,

to show what you're working on for the week to get

reaction from other people and just for fun,

because we all get to see the wonderful products that everybody

in the community is making my favorite posts every single week,

without doubt.

Wait, what,

aren't you part of the group already,

if not make sure to jump over to Facebook and search

for the group gift biz breeze don't delay.