190 – Taking Chances as You Start and Grow a Business with Kate Flynn of Sun and Swell Foods

Gift biz unwrapped episode 190 I literally walk up into my

apartment and say to my husband,

there are a few things that are going to change.

We're going to move to Santa Barbara and I'm going to

quit my job.

Attention. Gifters,

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Here is your host gift biz gal Sue moon Heights.

Hi there And I so appreciate you joining me here today.

Particularly if you're listening right after this episode got published because

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I am so excited to introduce you to Kate Flynn,

who is the founder and CEO of sun and swell foods.

This is a healthy snack food company based in Santa Barbara,

California. Kate started her company two years ago with her husband,

Brian, after realizing that most packaged good snack foods and stores

are loaded with added sugars and preservatives.

Her mission is to create on the go snack foods that

are made only with the highest quality whole food ingredients so

people don't have to compromise their health when eating on the

go. This is such an important topic these days.

Kate, I'm so glad you're here to talk with us about

it. Welcome to the gift biz unwrapped podcast.

Thank you for having me.

I'm excited to chat with you today.

Me too.

And I was telling you in the pre chat that I've

met you,

I've tried your product and love your product,

but I don't really know a lot about the backstory so

I'm really excited to get into all of it.

But before we do,

I start off in a little bit of a different way.

And that is by having you describe yourself through a motivational

candle. So if you were to share what color would resonate

with you,

Kate, and what type of quote would be on a candle

that speaks you describe for us your motivational candle.

My Color would be yellow for me,

yellow has always reminded me of being positive and optimistic and

I haven't always had that lens in life.

I think there have been times in my life where I've

let stress and the craziness of life get the best to

me, but suddenly I've been focusing on the past few years

is really just take a deep breath and not worry about

things and try to see everything with a view of optimism.

And that's really what something that yellow stands for for me

and man,

in terms of my motivational quote,

I think it would be,

you are the only one who can limit your greatness.

And the reason that would be my quote is because something

that I've become very aware of in my adult life,

but especially as a business owner,

is that a lack of confidence is sometimes the only thing

that holds me back.

And I'll probably get a little more into that later as

we discuss my business and some of the challenges along the

way. But for me it's really you need to believe in

yourself and you need to believe that you're the one who

is going to be responsible for your success.

And the only limitation is really limitations that you set for

yourself. I wholeheartedly agree with you.

You know,

I think a lot of people who aren't in business for

themselves think,

Oh, it's so easy.

You know,

you can just set your time limits,

decide what you're going to do,

work when you want,

all of that.

Right? And the real story is exactly what you're talking about.

The mindset can be brutal.

Putting yourself out there can really mess you up if you

don't get it in order.

Exactly. So good.

I know we're going to talk about this a little bit

more as we go cause that's what you've said and I

believe you,

but before we start with that,

tell us how you came upon the idea of being an

entrepreneur and the whole concept behind sun and swell foods.

Sure. So I never thought of myself as somebody who would

be an entrepreneur.

It's so funny because my husband from the day I met

him, his dream has always been to own his own business.

And I was always the person who said,

Oh my gosh,

I never want to do that.

I like stability.

I like job security.

I don't have what it takes to be an entrepreneur.

I'm not creative enough.

And so I always had this mindset that that role was

never for me.

And that was up until about two years ago.

And about two years ago,

to starting my company.

And when I was living in San Francisco,

I wasn't a crazy corporate job.

I was working really long hours.

What kind of industry were you in?

I'm curious.

I did management consulting with a focus in the retail and

consumer products space.

So basically big companies would hire us to come work with

their executive teams and help them set their strategy to grow

their business.

So for example,

one of my clients was a grocery store chain with 250

stores and they were trying to figure out who their core

consumer is and how to target it.

And so they brought us in to do the market research

and the research and help them come up with the answer.

So from a strategy side,

I've been involved in this consumer industry for awhile,

but it was really more on that.

It's more on the advisory side.

I was never actually working for a company that was making

the product.

Okay, got it.

So why was in client services?

So what that meant is we were often on projects with

very short timelines with deadlines that couldn't be moved.

And one thing I quickly realized about myself is I may,

gosh, I would call a self prescribed workaholic.

Oh, you and me.

Yeah, it's a struggle.

Sometimes I'm proud of it.

I know it means I have great work ethic,

but also has the tendency to throw me off balance sometime.

But anyways,

so I'm in this job,

I'm working a lot of hours,

I'm kind of burnt out.

I like what I'm doing.

But at the same time I knew I wasn't really,

really passionate about it and I went on a yoga retreat

place in big Sur called the Epsilon Institute and I went

to this yoga meditation retreat.

God, it was literally a life changing experience.

I walked out of it saying,

I'm not happy with my job.

I am not happy with what I'm doing.

I love my personal life,

but my work life is not fulfilling me right now.

I need to quit,

I need to leave.

And so I put a timeline on it and I said

in two months I'm quitting my job.

And the other thing that came out of that,

it was we were going to move from San Francisco to

Santa Barbara,

which is something that we had always wanted to do,

but it was one of those things where we wanted to

move to Santa Barbara,

but me and my husband kept telling ourselves that we weren't

going to be able to make it work.

So I walked out this retreat and I said,

I'm quitting my job and we're moving to Santa Barbara.

Okay, you got to stop there.

I have a question.

So you went to the retreat just for weekend healthy living

grounding. Where was it in the middle of that retreat where

this revelation came to you?

Yeah, so there was a moment,

and it's crazy because I never believed when people say there

was a moment.

I'm like,

yeah, right.

That doesn't really happen.

There was like a clear moment.

We just had come out of a a morning yoga meditation

center and we were walking back to the grounds and we

walked over this bridge.

There was a waterfall next to the bridge and the yoga

instructor, when we were wrapping up our session,

she said,

when you walk over the bridge,

I want you to stop and I want you to face

the waterfall and breathe in everything that makes you happy.

And then after you spend a few minutes doing that,

turn your back towards the waterfall and exhale everything that does

not make you happy.

And literally I sat there and I inhaled and I thought

of my husband and my friends and my family and I

turned my back and I exhaled.

And the only thought that into my mind was my job.

Sometimes I feel bad saying that because I love the company

I worked for.

I love the work I was doing,

I loved my colleagues,

but it just,

something was missing and it wasn't fulfilling me,

but it was so clear to me in that moment,

like that was it.

So I've walked other tree,

we made some decisions,

we put a stake in the ground.

And the funny thing is my advice to people,

a lot of people have I think share this story of

they want to go out and start their own business and

they keep saying they're going to do it.

They keep saying they're going to do it,

but they keep pushing back the timeline.

They keep pushing back the timeline and all of a sudden

three years have gone by and they haven't really done it

right. That could have happened to you because like you're saying

the job wasn't bad.

Right. And you could have endured and just said,

you know,

I'd be crazy not to stay here.

Right. But do you think that you were more open to

it because you were already changing locations?

There was already a transition going on for you.

So the change of locations is also something that came out

of that weekend because that's something that we have been talking

about for years.

That's something that was more clear in my head.

Like I knew going into that weekend that we wanted to

move. So we've thought about it,

but we had never put a stake in the ground for

it. So I think that was,

yeah, so it kind of came hand in hand.

Okay. Like this is the time to move and leave my

job. Like it was those two things I think together did

make it a little easier.

We didn't have a timeline on the calendar.

It was just something we talked about.

Was Brian with you on this retreat?

One of my girlfriends.

Okay, so you have this revelation.

So there's one more important thing that happened coming out of

this weekend.

We had this amazing yoga retreat,

me and one of my best girlfriends,

and we come out of the retreat thinking,

okay, we're feeling inspired,

we're feeling ready to change.

And then on the way home we have a six hour

drive and we decide to listen to this really amazing motivational

book by the author's name.

It's Jen's,

I think it's in Sarah or it's in Cero.

And the book is all about how you can create this

positive change in your life and it's all up to you.

And so we listen to this really,

really inspirational book on the way home.

We get home,

drop her off.

I arrived at my house.

I literally walk up into my apartment and say to my

husband, there are a few things that are going to change.

We're going to move to Santa Barbara and I'm going to

quit my job and we need to pick a date.

We just need to put a date on the calendar.

This was March and so we decided we were going to

move. Wait,

did he think you were insane?

Did he say no more yoga retreats for you?

Kate? A little bit.

He also really wanted to move to Santa Barbara.

He was in the same boat.

It's something that we both wanted to do and he knew

I wasn't fulfilled with what I was doing in my career

and he could see that and he had seen that for

years and he's so supportive.

I mean,

I'm very blessed in that if I told him someone was

going to make me happier,

he's all in.

Okay. So a thought is coming to me,

Kate, that I just want to get your opinion on here.

I think that people,

and you were talking about this earlier,

they say they want to do something,

they're interested in doing more.

They're afraid to take the leap into entrepreneurialship,

but it doesn't need to be just that.

It could be anything.

It sounds like you and Brian shared what your possibilities were

for the future and some thoughts and dreams and visions of

what it could look like,

which kind of then I'm thinking gave you to an opportunity

to go back and forth about yeah,

that would worked for me.

Or well,

what about doing it this way in,

in like a dream mode before it just became reality.

So you kind of could ease into the thought process and

see if it really was good for you.

So that leads me to think that people who are potentially

looking at changes in their life could be having these conversations

with their significant others and that's beneficial towards the progression when

you really decide,

okay, we're going to flip the switch and do it.

What do you think?

Absolutely. And one thing that was going on in parallel here,

honestly, probably about two or three weeks before I went on

this yoga retreat is when the idea for what is now

sending soul food started brewing.

So I had this idea of like,

wow, it would be great to create a company around this.

So that entrepreneurial bug for the first time ever started to

hit me.

So these little pieces were coming from different places and they

were all starting to merge together.

Exactly. Like I said,

Brian was always the one who wanted to be my,

that's my husband.

He's the one who always wanted to be the entrepreneur.

So when he hears I'm quitting my job and let's move,

he's also thinking,

Oh, this going to start our company.

Like this is going to be the beginning,

you know?

So it was all coming together.

I literally,

in order in an effort to make sure we actually did

this, I bought concert tickets on Memorial day in may in

Santa Barbara for a concert,

and I said,

we have to be living there by the state.

This is what's going to get us there.

We have a concert.

Oh, I love that.

And what month were you in at this point?

Again, This was March.

That's pretty fast.

It was the beginning of March.

It was the end of may.

So it gave us about three months.

But you know,

we were an apartment.

We were renting.

We didn't have kids.

It was easy for us to pick up and move.

Okay. But it was so little.

It was just concert tickets.

But it actually gave us a date to work towards.

And that's often one of the advice I give people who

are maybe considering taking a big leap of faith.

But it doesn't have to be,

you're going to quit your job and move,

but maybe it's that you're going to get your website up.

Like pick a date.

If you want to get your website up,

schedule an event in December and say your website needs to

be up by December.

And I've scheduled the event and I want to make sure

when I work this event that people have a website they

can visit.

You know,

it's really just putting little tiny six in the ground to

hold yourself accountable to these goals and promises that you make

yourself. That is an excellent best practice.

I want to underline that for all of our listeners to

think about,

and let's just use your website like you're talking about when

you have any type of a project instead of just starting

to work on it little by little because you know you

need to setting a stake in the ground to use your

words, Kate,

and saying this is when it's going to be done,

and then working backwards to make sure it gets done is

a better way to make sure it actually happens and you

just don't let it keep going into the future forever.

Excellent. I love that you brought that up.

Okay, so let's get to how did you actually develop sun

and swell foods?

2016 I changed my diet to focusing on a diet where

I was just eating whole real foods.

The particular diet I was following is called the whole 30

for anybody who's ever heard of that.

I'm doing that.

I love that.

Yeah, I know it's pretty amazing.

But up until doing the whole 30 I would say I

constantly struggled with food.

I went from,

when was in high school,

I was had a borderline eating disorder.

I was a binge eater all through college in my twenties

it was juice cleanses,

you know,

starving man.

It was just constant struggle and battle of food.

All of my teenage and most of my adult life up

until doing the whole 30 and what the whole 30 changed

for me is it made me stop.

It made me realize how simple it is to eat healthy.

If you just start flipping over ingredient labels,

you don't have to do all this math with calories and

entering things into an app or keeping track of all your

food or you know,

just look at the ingredients that you're eating and staying as

close to natural as possible.

Exactly. And that was pretty eye opening to me.

I describe it as finding food freedom because ever since doing

that I have never struggled with food again.

It's just an easy part of my life now and there's

so many changes that came from switching my diet,

cutting out all the refined sugar,

eating just this whole real food close as natural state as

possible. Not only did it call me mentally wrap my head

around my relationship with food,

but I had more energy than ever.

I had asked me my entire life,

it went away,

I slept better,

just all these crazy overall changes.

And it really,

I started doing a little more research on food and realizing

that there was this whole movement toward going away from,

you know,

added sugars,

added preservatives,

and really focusing on eating real foods.

And I realized I'm not the only,

there's a whole lot of people starting to eat this way.

But what I also found was it was pretty impossible to

find pre-made stacks that would accommodate this way of eating.

And at the time,

remember I was in my crazy job working long hours in

the office.

I didn't have time to sit at home and make my

own snack foods.

I really needed grab and go snacks to bring it into

the office with me.

And it was really hard for me to find things that

fit that mold.

And so this is when I started to realize,

okay, there's a need here.

There's more and more people eating this way.

There's very,

very, very few snacks and stores that can accommodate this way

of eating.

And I was making snacks at home and I wanted to

start bringing them to the market to make it easier for

people to eat this way.

So that's where the original idea came from.

Interestingly enough,

our first product was not the product we're selling today.

Our very first product that we experimented with,

it was actually a substitute for,

there's something that our endurance athletes use called GU,

kind of like a little package of gel,

but it's supposed to give you energy or nutrients.

Exactly, yeah.

It gives you energy and nutrients,

but almost every product on the market is loaded with sugar.

And at the time we were doing the whole 30 Brian

and I were training for a marathon and so it was

just challenge.

But Jenny,

the guru on the market,

like what should we do?

So we were making our own version of this using just

dates and water and putting them in little couches.

And that was the original idea that we were going after.

But that does not sound good,

Kate. I'm sorry.

What we realized was it did fit that really small need

that we had at that exact time.

But we did some market research.

We're like this is way too narrow of a niche.

And then on top of that we found out that it

had to be refrigerated and bringing it to market.

You know?

So we did our research.

Yeah. Cause all of the stability for shelf life and all

of that has to be a challenge too.

Exactly. The overarching idea was we want to make food products

with clean,

simple ingredients.

We started with this one idea.

We realized kind of quickly through a research it might not

be the best thing to launch with.

And so we pivoted,

which I think is another important thing for entrepreneurs to keep

in mind is you need to constantly evolve and change.

And if something doesn't work out,

it doesn't mean you give up and you're done with it.

It means you figure out a way to make it work

in another way.

Absolutely. And you're testing your own product,

which is perfect.

Exactly. So I took a step back and I'm like,

okay, when I do have time to make snacks at home,

what am I making?

And I was making these little energy balls,

we realized that is something that you can bring to market

and it's shelf stable.

And that's where our first product,

it wasn't really our first product,

but it's the first one that worked.

and we brought it to the market for the very first

time in August.

And this was another example of putting a stake in the

ground. We picked a local triathlon and we registered for a

booth and that was our deadline.

We had to get our design work done.

We had to get our website up,

we had to get some version of the product out there,

we had to have some version of packaging and it wasn't

all perfect.

And to be honest,

if we would've waited till it was perfect,

we probably would have waited another year to launch it.

But it was something to get out there.

And that was when we first brought it to market.

Tell us about the receptivity.

So people were trying it and I have to say it's

delicious. Oh,

thank you.

So where I was saying your fig and water just sounds,

I don't know,

it was probably a good,

it just,

when I visualize it,

it doesn't look as good.

But what you have now is delicious number one.

But also it's a different look to some of the other

things that are out there.

So you're creating something still connected enough,

like people understand what it is.

That was something you said it looks different.

That was something that we always valued from the very beginning

and it is making something that we really prioritize design.

And for me that's something that I personally always recommend.

You have very little money when you're starting a business.

You have to pick and choose where you spend it.

And for me,

you know,

this is just my opinion,

but I always think it's worth investing in the little design

work upfront.

I think of design,

you think design of your packaging and all of that,

but also design of your product.

Yeah, that's going to catch people's eyes because before you have

any brand recognition,

you got to rely on your people just wanting to pick

up your product.

So it looks interesting.

Right. So let's go back to the triathlon.

What happened there?

So that your very first time showing it to the public,

first of all,

were you scared,

nervous and anxious or were you excited or everything?

Yeah, I was nervous cause we had had our friends try

it, but you never know,

like you never know and we had really feedback and but

they're our friends and families.

Of course they're going to give positive,

you know,

we don't know if they would tell us if it was

bad. Right.

I was a little nervous going in,

but we had really a lot of positive feedback at the

event and to me what I walked away feeling the best

about it was we had kids loving it and to me

I'm like,

wow, if a kid likes it,

that's not an adult coming up to us and knowing we're

local vendors and just being friendly and saying they like it

to be nice and having it because it's healthy.

Yeah, exactly.

I'm like,

if a kid's eating it and enjoying it,

that means that we actually do have something that tastes good.

I think what I think tastes good is probably not because

I try to stay away from refined sugars and stuff like

that. I think a lot of things,

things that would taste yummy to me might not be for

everybody. Right.

But if we have kids approving it,

that is,

we really do have this good tasting product.

The other really exciting thing to me is I could see

at that event that our value proposition was resonating with people.

So for us,

I kind of talked about this little bit earlier,

but what our commitment is is making products with only whole

real foods and very,

very short,

simple ingredient lists.

So I mean,

you could literally make in your home kitchen,

if you can't make it in your home kitchen,

if you have to Google an ingredient,

it's not going to work for us.

It has to be simple ingredients,

you know,

some of you can make yourself.

And what was awesome for me was seeing people pick up

our package,

flip it over and make that comment and say,

wow, that's all that's in there.

To me,

I was like,

okay, we got something.

I'm like,

this is resonating.

And it was a very small audience that we introduced the

product. I mean,

I think maybe have you talked to like maybe we talked

to 50 people throughout the whole weekend,

but yeah.

Was that a little bit of positive feedback that made us

want to keep going?

And it sounds like it was consistent too.

Yeah. And of course you will get the people who are

like, Ugh,

not for me.

You know,

there's always those people who try it and have a really

adverse reaction and that's okay.

Yeah, that's okay.

That was,

you know,

only a smaller percentage of the people there.

It's funny doing things like this cause like we're in the

health food space and your product's not going to be for

everybody. And I think that that's something that I try so

hard not to take it personally and people don't like it.

But I do and I try not to,

and I know it's wrong and I know I shouldn't,

but it is the reality.

It doesn't matter if your product may be the perfect product

for 5% of people out there and it's okay,

then 95% of people don't like it.

Or your product may be the perfect product for 75% of

people out there and only 25% but it's never going to

be for everybody.

And I think that's something that is also important to keep

in mind because there will consistently be every single day people

who tell you they don't like it,

but it doesn't mean you're having a bad product.

It just means it's not for them.

That's also when we talked in the very beginning about your

mindset and understanding that that's okay.

Nobody is going to be a hundred percent everyone's going to

like everything for sure.

Exactly. So I do want to jump a little bit ahead

in your story cause I want to make sure we get

this in right.

So this was your first event.

The product is still very new on the market,

but you had a huge opportunity For visibility recently and I

want to get into that story.

I can't wait for you to hear Kate's story on this,

but I'm going to keep you in suspense for just a

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Yes, so I heard that deep breath there.

Yes. Okay.

This is the WIWORK story,

right? Right.

we're about,

it's now,

we've been in business for about two years.

Throughout those two years we've been focusing on building our business

in Southern California.

We're building awareness,

building the brand primarily in Southern California,

but at the same time we are starting to think about

what's next and how do we start to build the brand

beyond that and what are some good partnerships for us companies

and partners to align with to really get us to the

next level of growth.

And there is an opportunity that came up.

It was first presented in tests about a couple of months

ago. And basically there's an organization called we work and we

work is a shared workspace for anybody who doesn't know what

that is,

it's basically a communal office.

So for people who it's a place a lot of entrepreneurs

or small or small businesses will work out of if they

don't want to rent their own office space,

they can go work in the shared workspace.

So it has coffee and printers and everything a normal office

would have,

but it's more of a communal workspace and just an individual

office. This company we work has like over 250 locations.

That's also great.

Besides the Starbucks option,

just going and meeting someone at a local coffee shop.

I think they also have areas like if you have a

meeting that you need to do,

you can rent out conference room space and they virtually have

everything you need so you're able to represent your business and

have meetings in a professional situation and do work on a

regular basis too.

And I think rubbing shoulders with other people who were doing

business kind of at a similar level as you because they're

not going into big office or something has a ton of

value as well.

Anyway, I went on a tangent.

Carry on,

Kate. That's exactly it.

And so one of our friends,

his name's Sam,

he lives in New York city and we basically have asked

him to help build out our brand in New York because

although that's on the completely opposite side of the country,

we think that's a really great market for our product.

Given the types of consumers that live in New York city,

Does he have some background or expertise?

Is there a certain reason why you picked Sam?

Well, he's one of Brian's best friends.

They have in their past tried to do a few startups

together. So it's kind of always been Brian's business partner.

They're best friends from high school.

But Sam is like such a sales guy.

I mean he can sell anything and he's great.

Everybody likes him.

He can sell anything.

So for when we were okay,

we want to build out our brand in New York,

Sam would be a great guy to help us with this.

So that's where,

you know,

our friend Sam is now in New York.

He's helping us get our brand out there and he works

out of WeWork for his day job.

And he had heard about we,

we basically talked to Sam about,

Hey, we have these markets in that they sell food and

a lot of them,

how do we get our products in there?

And so Sam looks into it and he finds out that

they're actually holding a pitch competition.

I think there's about 200 of these little markets throughout the

country and they're actually revamping them too.

Bring in products that are focused on better for you snack

foods, so ones that are healthier,

impact driven,

et cetera.

So they're actually currently in the process of revamping their markets

and best holding is pitch competitions to bring new products in.

So Sam gets us looped in with this pitch competition and,

and it's supposed to be in September and Brian and I

are flying out to the East coast in September.

We were doing a trade show out there and the idea

was we're going to go to this trade show in Baltimore,

hang out on the East coast for the weekend and go

to New York city the following week to this pitch competition.

So Friday before the pitch competition,

we find out that there was a little confusion with the

dates. I think that it had been rescheduled but we didn't

find out till just then.

So we have this whole trip planned in New York.

We had to cancel it.

We didn't go.

The pitch competition was rescheduled for three weeks later in October.

So at that point Brian and I were kind of like,

you know that was there for tennis to go.

It didn't happen.

If we were meant to go there it would have worked

out like that.

It's probably just not meant to be,

let's not book flights out to this other one.

So it's really expensive.

We already tried to go to New York,

it didn't work.

So you are canceling the whole thing.

We're about to cancel it cause they've rescheduled it.

We've already lost money on flights.

We booked to New York that we have to cancel and

on top of that it's going to be a lot of

money to go back out to New York.

And on top of that,

the date that the pitch competition was going to be,

it was a Tuesday and the Monday before and the Wednesday

after, we had two really important production runs that I had

to be there for.

We were launching brand new products and it was a first

time doing the recipes in a large scale and we had

these production runs schedule that our kitchen here in Southern California.

So everything was pointing to like maybe we just shouldn't go.

Makes complete sense.

Yeah. We're sitting there and we're like,

okay, financially we probably shouldn't go trying to get out there

for, you know,

we have this production run,

we probably shouldn't go,

but there's this like little bug that's like,

what if you go,

what if you win?

And this happens often that these opera,

it's constantly when you're an entrepreneur,

it's constantly trade offs of should I take this opportunity or

should I not take this opportunity?

Yeah. So here you're sitting with logic versus intuition.

Exactly. And I'm like logically I don't think it makes a

lot of sense,

but we're feeling like there could be a chance and we're

feeling like it could be a good opportunity.

So kind of decided we're not going to go.

And then the Friday before,

so the company's not Tuesday,

the Friday before,

we're like,

maybe we should go,

let's just do it.

So the competitions on a Tuesday,

we have to be in Santa Barbara on Monday and Wednesday.

So we book red eye flights out on Monday.

So we fly overnight from LA to New York on Monday

night. We go to the pitch competition Tuesday and then we

have the flight book to return home Tuesday nights Again.

That's insane.

First of all,

but I bet your adrenaline.

Yeah. Once you made the decision you were doing it.

It was like all it.

Yeah, totally.

And like,

I don't know,

like I'm so much in the camp of if you put

it out to the universe and if you say yes to

things, things are just going to happen.

Right. I think once I made the decision,

I was like,

I have a good feeling about this.

This is gonna work out Okay.

But Kate logistics and getting out there now is one thing.

You got the whole pitch to do.

So which we of course it was really hard to find

time to prepare for a pitch because it's three days and

we have a lot of other things going on as we

always do as every entrepreneur does.

So, but we figured out,

we're like,

well we have a five hour plane ride out there.

Well we'll work on the pitch on the way out there.

But the good thing is it's only a 92nd pitch.

So it's not,

it's like,

okay, like we just have to figure out how to describe

our company in 90 seconds,

which sometimes is the hardest thing is trying to tell your

story in 90 seconds.

But at least there was no presentation.

It's literally just getting up there and talking about your company

for 90 seconds.

Right? We can do this.

So we go and we do it.

And how do you feel you did?

It's so funny because we were the first people to go

and for some reason we didn't bring our product up there

with us.

So we're describing our company and what we do,

but we're not holding the product.

So one of the judges asked,

can you describe your product?

And we're like,

Oh gosh,

why weren't we just holding the pro?

Like so you know,

there's little things like that and I walk away being like,

Oh gosh,

we just lost it because we were holding the product,

but that apparently didn't really matter cause we ended up winning.

They basically selected I think three or four companies that day

that were going to be placed into these markets.

And you are one of them.

And we're one of them.

And this year we're going to roll out to five locations

in New York.

And over the course of next year they'll roll us out

to all 200 locations.

So I mean,

this is huge for us.

First off,

congratulations. I obviously knew because I prompted you to go into

this story,

but you'll just jump over.

We made the presentation.

Oh yeah.

And by the way we want,

right. So you got to do the presentation and then were

you listening to everybody else?

Like everyone gets to listen to everyone else who pitches,

We're the first people and then we listened to everybody else.

And so you're obviously comparing what you represented compared to everybody

else and say,

Oh well you know,

maybe we're a better fit and not them and all of

that. So when it got to the point where they were

going to announce the winners,

did you feel you had a chance?

I have been told time and time and time again that

we have a great product,

but I still sit there and doubt myself in moments like

this when I'm,

there are so many other great products and yeah,

every single person that I pitched,

I thought that I could see why they would select them

over us,

but I could also see why they would select us over

them. The one thing that I felt really,

really good about was we were the only product like ours.

We weren't up against other little snack bites.

We were the only product that was really our style of

snack food.

And to me that was promising.

I thought,

okay, well one of the companies that we were up against

that also got selected as well was a water and a

really sustainable package,

which was great.

But to me I'm like,

okay, that's not really our competition right now because if they

wanna bring a beverage and we'll bring a beverage.

So I was kind of constantly doing that trade off in

my head of why would they select us over them or

are we even competing against them as a different category.

But you know,

the funny thing is you sit there for an hour and

a half,

listen to everybody else and just,

it's not going to change anything.

How hard you think about it or compared to change the

resolve. But in a way it was great that you went

first because even with the little tobacco,

because then you weren't freaking out and comparing yourself.

I always like going first.

But I also have to say your product is so conducive

to that environment.

Being able to take the package,

bring it back to wherever you're doing your work,

open it up,

you know it's not messy.

All of that makes so much sense to me.

So again,

fireworks, confetti,

congratulations. That is so exciting.

And I bet you guys on the way back,

because you still had this rush,

you had to get back,

but I bet you guys on the plane back were like

what just happened?

Oh my gosh.

So literally our flight was at,

gosh I think 10th or like they was down to the

minute when there was a point where we're waiting for them

to announce the winners and we were like,

we might miss our flight if we wait for this,

but we have to wait.

So if we miss our flight,

we miss our flight.

We need to wait and see what happens.

So they announced the winners.

We set our thank you is and we hopped in the

cabins straight to the airport and honestly would have missed our

flight if it wasn't delayed for an hour.

We made our flight because it was delayed,

right? Yeah.

Yeah. It was just kind of surreal because when I look

back at,

or even when I was looking forward to it,

I was like,

wow, this is huge.

And it's really hard to process sometimes in the moment it's

hard to be like,

wait, what just happened?

And I think that with everything.

Yeah, not just this pitch.

Competition was amazing and it was a little bit more visibility

than a lot of the other winds we have.

But sometimes Brian and I sit back and we're like,

yeah, we look at,

you know,

the stores we've gotten into or you know,

some things that have happened and we're like,

there's so many,

just things to celebrate along the way that sometimes you get

so caught up.

We were so excited by this pitch competition,

but the first thing we did when we get on the

plane was start thinking what's next?

We literally had to pause ourselves.

We had to pause and say,

let's not think about next steps on this play ride.

Let's just talk about how cool this is.

And we forced ourselves sit there and just be stoked about

it for four hours on the way home versus trying to

think of what's next,

what's next,

what's next.

Right. It's hard sometimes to take a moment and pause and

celebrate and congratulate yourself.

When we first started the business.

I'm really regret that we don't do this anymore.

When we first started,

I literally used to keep a little log of daily wins.

I'm grateful we did it for like the first month because

I look back on the log and it reminds me of

how far we've come.

I recorded when we got our first Instagram follower that was

not friends and family or first organic Instagram follower or our

first online purchase and all of these little tiny things that

we celebrate it and we jumped up and down for her

and we cheered for and as you grow you forget how

far you've come and so although we don't keep that log

anymore, I'm really glad we have it from that first mother

too in business.

And when I look back on it,

it does tell me,

put into perspective what we've been able to build.

Yeah, I think it's a great idea.

I have three questions for you about this whole thing and

I want to make it a little bit shorter so that

we can get into all the other things I want to

talk to you about real quick,

but hindsight now,

what advice would you have for somebody who's in a situation

like yours where there's always an opportunity,

you're bracketed on both sides with time restraints.

What was your thinking?

What would you say to somebody who is in a situation

like that in terms of should they do it or should

they not?

I would say trust your gut.

I think if you have a good feeling,

then go for it and be okay with the fact that

it might not work out and it might not,

but if you listen to your gut,

your intuition is telling you something.

There's a reason why,

and you hate to be in a position where you look

back and regret not taking a chance because as an entrepreneur,

as a business owner,

it's all about taking chances Really,

really good point.

So now you've landed this account that,

because it was kind of spur of the moment,

you thought about it before,

but in spur of the moment you've decided,

yes, we're going bought the tickets,

went and now you've landed this big account.

Did that affect how you were going to do business and

your business plan moving forward?

Because you now have to integrate all of that into your

systems. We've built a base and we have set ourselves up

to be able to handle something like this.

I'm not saying everybody has will be in a position to

do that every time they get a big win.

But we were very cautious about going after things that we

felt like we wouldn't be able to deliver on.

In fact,

to this day we have not approached whole foods.

We've not approached sprouts because we don't know if we internally

have the resources to be able to deliver.

That's a whole different industry and has a whole different requirements.

So we were ready for it.

We set ourselves up for it,

we have the manufacturing capacity and all of that,

and it's going to be a little bit of a slow

rollout. So it's going to be something that's not,

it just doesn't happen tomorrow.

It's going to happen over the next six to nine months.

We're prepared for it,

but we were cautious about putting ourselves in.

We try not to put ourselves in situations where we think

we might get a big win and then not be able

to deliver.

Right. So we've talked a lot about all the successes and

chances that you've taken and you've been alluding to,

go ahead,

you know,

take chances.

Is there one you can share with us that didn't work

out? And of course the next question from that is,

what do you learn from it?

Yeah, so I would say if the example I'm going to

give is not one grand example,

but something that's happened over and over again.

But it felt very big to when we first launched our

company. So when we first launched our company and we were

going after approaching these new accounts,

we were trying to get our products in doors for the

first time.

I think we had currently three retail customers and I was

trying to get our fourth door and I found the store

and I thought it'd be the perfect fit.

And I was going after them and they said,

no, we don't think your product's going to be a good

fit. We're not going to carry you.

And again,

like at the time,

in hindsight,

to me,

I'm like,

okay, that's just one account.

Doesn't mean anything.

But that was at the time when we're just bring our

product to market.

It was the first time I was putting my product out

there. So even going up to anybody and trying to get

them to buy the product was scary and a big thing.

And they said no.

And at first I just took their no and I got

sad and I went home and I was like,

Oh gosh,

nobody wants their product.

Somebody said no to me.

That one no turns into nobody will want my product.

But you know,

it's like hard not to take,

it's hard because in my mind this was the perfect fit

for us.

It was a natural food store.

I was like,

Oh, they have a local natural food store.

I'm like,

if they don't take our product then nobody's gonna want our

product. But then I was like,

okay, wait,

no, can't just be like shut down and no has to

be a learning opportunity.

So I went back to them and I said,

what do you see as the challenges?

And they express some concerns and I was able to address

the concerns cause I knew our product very well.

And they're like,

all right,

you know,

we'll give you a chance.

So they put us in.

I followed up a week later and I said,

how's the product doing?

They said,

the product's not selling.

I was like,

Oh great,

here we go again.

This isn't going to work in natural food store.

Nobody's buying it.

And again,

I did walk out and I was super discouraged.

Ended up following up with them and be like,

you know,

is there anything that you can think of that we could

do to help turn the product?

And they're like,

yeah, just give us some samples.

Nobody's going to buy it without trying it.

In hindsight,

it was,

Oh duck,

I needed to give them some samples so people would try

our product and I ended up giving them samples.

The product ended up turning and they still carry our product

to this day in comparison to the thing that just worked

out, that seems small,

but at the time it was just as big.

It doesn't always work out like that.

A lot of times we get told no and it really

is a no and they won't reconsider and we don't end

up selling or we have lost accounts because our product hasn't

turned. And I think the biggest thing is treating them as

a learning experience and not a point of discouragement.

And if your product doesn't sell somewhere,

it doesn't mean it's bad.

We've learned that certain types of accounts aren't good fits for

us because our price is too high or they don't have

that type of clientele,

but AF over time,

now that we have all these data points,

we've been able to understand what that looks like.

But when you're first trying to get your product out there,

you don't know what that looks like sometimes.

But yeah,

I think treating everything is a learning experience versus a failure.

I guess the best way to approach things like that and

trying to stay in that mindset.

Yes. Well you also did something that a lot of people

don't do,

so this is an excellent example and that is you approached

this particular store thinking you were going to land it perfect

fit, et cetera.

They said no and you could have just then stopped.

Yep. I don't mean stop in your entirety,

like stop the business.

Right. But you could have not approached them again and just

gone on to another one.

Let's say another one said no,

you know,

and just like continued going to individual stores getting either a

yes Or no,

but the fact that you went back and asked for further

information from them to understand their perspective gets you so much

further. Yeah.

Because saying you know what the challenges were and then letting

you put it in the store and then finding that you

needed samples,

all of that just makes you so much smarter for the

next time versus again,

just going into one store hearing no going to another,

you're not setting yourself up for as deep a potential of

success versus what you did when you went back in and

asked. Right.

I don't think I made a lot of sense with that,

but maybe the point got through.

The other thing though,

I wanted to say,

which always surprises me,

I'm out a lot at different types of food shows,

candy shows,

savory shows,

snap shows,

all this type of thing.

You would be amazed how many people don't give samples.

Yeah. It's really surprising and you're right.

I mean if you can't sample something specially yours because you

know it does look a little bit different.

It's super yummy.

So you want people sampling,

especially give it to the kids.

Cause now we know all about.

But it's a good point to underline for people who do

have products that are edible,

you know,

make sure to bring samples.

And do you make smaller versions of your product for samples

or do you just bring in bulk your product For different

occasions? We have different things.

We don't have like an official tiny sample pack because honestly

with the way we make things right now,

it would be very expensive for us to make those little

sample packs because just from a packaging we have to order

special packaging and stuff like that.

What we typically do is when we're doing production runs,

we set aside product specifically for samples.

So we cut them up into little pieces.

We put them in big bags.

So we have these big sample bags sitting aside that we

can always bring to events.

So we're very generous.

It's not just events.

When we get a new,

if we start selling a new coffee shop,

part of our strategy when we launch a new account is

to give them a bunch of samples for their staff to

try. Because if you're selling a coffee shop,

you want the cashiers and the baristas to know what the

product is like cause people are going to ask and then

we also give samples to give to their customers as well.

So that's part of our launch strategy with new accounts.

Well this whole history of what's come about to date cause

it's very short history,

but very successful is such a great story.

I really appreciate you coming on and sharing this with me

and my listeners.

And in return I would like to offer to you a

gift. It's a magical box containing unlimited possibilities for your future.

So this is your dream or your goal of almost unreachable

Heights that you would wish to obtain.

So accept this gift on behalf of me and my listeners

and open it right now.

What is inside your box?

I would actually give myself,

and this ties back to the candle at the beginning,

don't tell me it's another yoga retreat.

No, it's okay.

I would actually like a confidence Cape or competence hat or

something that would give me the magical powers to always believe

in myself and my product.

It goes back to this example we were just talking about

not getting defeated and going back into a store and asking

and learning and this has been my biggest struggle as a

business owner,

the biggest,

if I'm not aware of it and if I'm not constantly

working on it,

it holds me back and I think that there's so much

room to grow.

There's so much to do with our business right now,

but you know it's,

I need to believe in it and I do,

but it's hard sometimes and sometimes it can hold me back.

I think if I could walk around feeling a hundred percent

confident all the time,

there would be no stopping me.

That would be amazing.

If we do that,

and I dare to say that there is no stopping you,

you just go back and listen to this.

When you are ever questioning yourself because look at all you

have accomplished so far and your courage in all of these

different steps.

Here's to you keeping that confidence Cape on the majority of

the time.

Thank you.

We know it's not possible for us.

We'll just try and keep it on you as often and

as long as we can.

How about that?

That's perfect.

Okay, so if there was one single place that you were

direct our listeners,

if they want to know more about you,

where would that be?

Yeah, our website is a great place for that and the

website is just www.sunandswellfoods.com

Perfect. And give biz listeners,

you know there's a show notes page that accompanies this and

every episode of the show I will have all social media

links on there and I'm also going to put on that

elusively titled inspirational book that Kate was referring to.

We couldn't talk about the title and you'll know why when

you see what it is.

So that's a little kind of teaser for you to go

over to the show notes page and see what it is,

but an excellent book.

I would recommend it just as much as you do.

Kate, I also want to do a shout out to Ann

pacier because she is the one who suggested that you and

I get together for an interview and I'm so glad we

did so Anne,

thank you for that.

I know you'll be listening at some point,

so yes,

so there's that and Kate,

you are going to help all of us find food freedom.

I know it and I just love that saying,

but anyone who has a rework in their area over the

course of maybe the next year or so,

look for sun and swell foods and who knows where else

it's going to be available,

but for sure online too,

right? Yes.

Thank you again so much for your honesty,

your insight and I'm so excited what happens next because I

know you're an action taker.

Love that.

So all the best and much success to you,

Kate. Thank you.

Wasn't Kate story inspiring?

Getting an idea?

Developing a product and then getting confirmation that it's really good

and getting placement in some big stores.

I think as we circle into the new year,

there will be other people who are thinking about,

okay, this is maybe the year for me.

This is maybe the year when I'm going to finally stop.

Just dabbling and selling to friends and family,

but really kicking off my business for real.

If you have any friends like that,

I just want to remind you of the new book I

put out this year maker to master.

It's full of best practices on how to start a business

and also if someone has gotten started and is just stuck,

the traction isn't there.

There are some great examples of where you could be perfecting

and enhancing what you're already doing.

This would be a great gift or a stocking stuffer.

If you have someone like this in your life,

here's a little more info.

Are you discouraged because your business is not performing as you

had envisioned?

Are you stuck and confused about how to turn things around?

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