284 – How to Use Kickstarter to Grow Your Handmade Business with Azhelle Wade The Toy Coach

Gift biz unwrapped episode 284.

I just really loved the idea of being a part of

a kid's imagination and longterm memory at Tinton gifters bakers,

crafters, and makers pursuing your dream can be fun.

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listening, learning,

and pleasure up first today,

a quick announcement.

Have you seen the new Facebook shops?

I did a challenge in my Facebook group a few weeks

ago, to get people up and running on this platform.

You may have heard the bonus podcast episode about it.

It was so exciting to see current business owners open another

channel for money to flow into their business.

And also for new makers who were getting their first sales

ever based on all the feedback I received.

I've now turned this challenge into a very affordable mini course.

If you've been thinking about making money from your handmade products

yet haven't formally started your business yet.

You definitely want to check this out.

The holidays are coming so it's the perfect time to have

some of those gifting dollars come your way.

You can get all the details about the program over at

gift biz,

unwrapped.com forward slash Facebook shops.

The link again,

gift biz,

unwrapped.com forward slash Facebook shops.

Now onto today's show,

I'm taking you back into your childhood and we're talking about

toys. I mean,

do we have to eliminate that joy from our lives?

Just because we're adults?

I say no.

So we have the toy coach here to talk with us

all about the business of toys.

Specifically, we go behind the scenes of a Kickstarter program.

This could be a great option.

If you want funding to get your product onto store shelves,

you'll hear a specific direction and what to watch out for

to make sure your Kickstarter is successful.

Additionally, I want you to pay particularly close attention to the

beginning of our conversation.

We talk about an obstacle that we all face.

I know you've experienced it.

The one where the well runs on creativity,

no matter how hard you force your brain to think the

creativity is just missing.

How do people come up with the ideas that bring their

product and business to the next level?

Michelle shares with us,

her method of attracting that creative spark and why it's so

important. Let's jump right over to that conversation.

Give biz listeners.

I am so excited to introduce you today to Janelle Wade,

the toy coach.

Oh my gosh.

Just by the name of it,

it sounds like we're going to be having some fun today

as Shell's been having way too much fun.

Working in the toy industry for over 10 years with companies

like toys,

R us party city and Madame Alexander.

She has three patented toy products,

multiple design awards,

and is the host of the well known toy industry podcast

called making it in the toy industry today.

Janelle is known as the toy coach.

She loves helping people outside of the toy industry,

find their way in so that they can bring their toy

ideas to life.

Her online program,

toy creators Academy clarifies the toy development and launch process with

step by step guidance.

Shell's mantra for her students and listeners is make it toyetic

Oh, I love that.

A Zelle.

Welcome to the gift biz on ramp pie Guest.

Thank you so much for having me.

Thank you.

Happiness and smiles is what toys are all about,

right? Yes.

Yeah, definitely.

Oh, I can't wait to dive into this one.

Okay. But I'm going to put everyone in suspense for a

minute because I have to ask my traditional question,

which is revolving around a motivational candle.

So we're all creators here.

I call my community gifters bakers,

crafters, and makers.

We all do handmade something or handmade turns into something else.

Maybe even a toy.

I don't know.

I like to have you described yourself by way of a

motivational candle.

It gives us a little different look inside you.

So if you were to tell us what color and quote

would be a candle that you would create specially for yourself,

what would it?

Okay. Well,

I have to say this question is amazing because my sister

actually used to make candles as one of her main hobbies.

So I want my motivational candle to be my favorite candle

of her hers,

which was this Apple pie candle.

I know it's different,

but I loved that candle.

And I feel like that would just be,

I mean,

she gave me one,

I feel like that's my motivational candle because it kind of

helps me remember how sweet life is.

It's easy to get caught up in the day to day

and not appreciate what you have and that candle look so

sweet. Smell so sweet.

Honestly, this Apple pie candle.

That's my candle.

I'm all over it.

Was it shaped and looked like an Apple pie too.

Oh yeah.

It was sized like an Apple pie.

No. Yeah,

it was his Apple pie candle.

Oh, yum.

All right.

I'm with you with that.

Why is she not making them anymore?

We need them.

She got a,

a more realistic job,

I guess Either that,

or maybe she should listen to this show and then learn.

I don't know what paths take us different ways.

Right. And given that,

let's talk about your path into the toy industry.

Like I'm thinking,

although you were exposed to toys as a child,

you didn't think this would be your career.

I actually knew I was always going to work with kids

in some way.

So I went back and forth between wanting to be a

teacher, like a child psychologist.

And then I actually went on to major in exhibition design

at the fashion Institute of technology in New York city.

And I was really focused on doing children's exhibitions.

I was like,

I'm going to work at the hall of science and I'm

going to develop these experiences for kids.

And so I guess one of my teachers saw what I

was doing and how all of my exhibitions were focused on

kids and play.

And he told me,

he was like,

you know,

there's a toy program here.

And I was like,

what are you talking about?

He was like,

yeah. He was like,

there's a tour design program here.

And I was like,

well, I'm trying to make a living.

And that doesn't sound like I can make any money.

Right. And he was like,

no, he's like this industry is actually very lucrative.

And he's like,

it's a real industry.

You should look into it.

So I did.

And I mean,

the rest is history.

I went and I met the head of the toy program

at the fashion Institute of technology MIT.

And I told her my passion and she kind of took

me under her wing.

And I took a couple of pre classes to get myself

ready to apply for the program.

And I applied and they only accept about 20 to 30

people a year.

So I got in and the rest is history.

No, I'm thinking that the toy program then went through product

development, lots of business classes,

things like that,

marketing, all that,

You know,

it was actually much more creative than business.

So it was a lot of illustration trying to illustrate your

ideas, concept your ideas,

physically working in wood shops to build your toy products out

of wood and plastic.

And then there was a little bit of like marketing,

but also we got into like graphic design and three D

modeling. We touched on everything in the toy industry and it

was just a two year program.

I just have to ask this because I'm curious,

what was it about kids that attracted you so much?

I think with kids,

it's just the way that sense of wonder that they have

everything that they look at in their everyday life.

They're just amazed and interested and it's like the best thing

they've ever seen.

So it feels good.

Like the reactions that you get from whatever you're doing,

working with them,

just it's good for them.

And then it also comes back and it feels good to

you too.

Yeah, definitely.

And who doesn't like to feel like they're making a positive

impact? I just love the idea that I could do something

that will live on in a child's memory.

The way that Polly pockets live on in my memory is

this like positive,

fun thing that allowed me to be creative and create world.

I just really loved the idea of being a part of

a kid's imagination and longterm memory.

Almost thinking specially now,

because Polly pockets,

just when you say that,

I can see my favorite one right now.

Yeah. Which one was your favorite one?

It was a blonde haired one that was inside a little

bubble necklace that I wore.

Oh really?

Of course I don't have it anymore.

What was I thinking when I gave those things away?

I was needing to be an adult or something.

I don't know.

I know,

like I wished you still have some of your little kid

dolls. No,

I blame my mom.

She went through this whole,

like cleaning phase when I left the house and I had

this giant bag filled with Polly pockets and she totally threw

them away.

And I tell her now I'm like,

you know what?

Those are worth like hundreds of dollars,

by the way.

Right. Those things you threw way mom.

But my favorite Polly pocket,

it was like a perfume bottle.

And it actually had at the top of the perfume bottle,

like the case looks like a perfume bottle when you closed

it. And the top of it actually had like a Rose

scent. So it was actually like perfume.

I love that Beauty.

You got the dial and the perfume,

The place that it was.

All right.

So this is the type of thing that all toy makers

are hoping for.

Right. That we speak about the toys that we had with

a passion and it touches our heart.

Like that's the goal,

right? To remember Yes.

A hundred percent.

Okay. So I'm still so curious.

I have to talk more about you and your experiences here.

Three patented toy products.

Did that evolve from the training?

So, yeah,

I mean,

what happened to me when I first started in the toy

industry in college,

I was actually terrible at coming up with ideas.

I was so bad.

I would like cry at night cause I'm like,

I can't come up with any more toy ideas.

And like,

it was terrible.

Oh, Crying over toys again.

I would make,

say to my friends,

like, why did you let me go into this major?

Like, what were you thinking was terrible.

But because of that,

I had to figure out how to control my creativity and

like how to be able to unleash it the way I

wanted to unleash it.

Right. Or when I wanted to unleash it.

So I think I learned through the toy program,

how to do that,

how to control my creativity.

I came up with the ways that work best for me.

I learned from other people,

learned a little bit from teachers.

So when I got out into the world and I'm working

at my first job,

all of my patents were actually from very early on in

my career.

This way of thinking that I developed is how I came

up with the patented ideas.

It's something I kind of break out into steps into in

my podcast and teachings and stuff,

but it's just a way to not get caught up with

what other companies are doing.

But at the same time,

you have to do the research to know what's existing.

So it's like a fine line between trend research and knowing

what's going on,

but also being able to put it away and combine it

with books and TV shows and even favorite candles to come

up with something completely unique.

It's all about digesting good content and allowing it to mix

around in your head without controlling it.

Without trying to say,

I need to come up with something specifically for teens,

it's more about absorbing books,

TV shows kids,

YouTube channels.

What other toy companies are doing,

new materials that are out there and just letting them sit

inside your mind without too much control.

And then when ideas start cropping up,

writing them down and not thinking them through too much.

And I think it's really important to allow your brain to

learn how to kind of combine things that might not seem

creative. And then you teach yourself how to see the creativity

within those combinations.

And then you're like,

Oh wait,

actually, if you combine Polly pockets and mighty Morphin power Rangers,

that's actually could be a good idea.

How can I evolve that more?

So that's kind of how I taught myself.

And that's how I came up with the patented ideas and

things like that.

And that's how I still come up with ideas today.

I think we can all get it when you were first

talking about what's the blank slate.

It's kind of like when we talk about writing a blog

article or something like it's a blank piece of paper,

what are those words?

Same thing with product creation is what I'm hearing you saying.

And I think it's really,

really important.

One of the things that you just said as you were

going through is you need to know what's out there in

the industry of what you're looking at making,

but then you shut it off.

Yeah. Just making another repeat.

Who is it?

There's that quote that says different is better than better.

Have you ever heard that?

Oh yeah.

There's a quote.

I forget who said it,

but I think it was Sally Hogshead who might've said that.

So creating something different still in an industry that,

you know,

toys is you get so much further along than making a

better dial,

a better Polly pocket,

a better whatever.

Yes, exactly.

The only way you're going to do that is to shut

off what you're seeing from everybody else.

Because I think that actually restricts your creativity.

It's so funny you say that because that is exactly what

I was doing.

When I was first starting out,

I would look at existing toys and literally think,

how can I make that better?

And it didn't work.

It just didn't work.

The ideas weren't creative.

They weren't innovative.

It didn't feel fun.

It didn't feel natural.

So when you stop thinking about just making something better,

but you want to make something different that's yeah.

You're so,

right. Right.

Well, I'd like to claim the quote,

but I can't.

I also think when you look at your competition,

it gets very intimidating and defeatist.

How could I possibly get as big as them or it's

already done all those things that we start telling her?

Yeah. One of the big things is to just look at

how kids are playing and look at how they want to

play. Instead of looking at your competition,

then you can combine how kids are already playing or how

they want to play with a new theme to come up

with something different.

Oh, that's good.

Look at your customer.

Put your focus on your customer a hundred percent.

I think also I'm saying this for listeners benefit,

but I'm going to share it with you.

So in my private Facebook group,

I don't have,

you know,

how lots of times in the industry,

like you have the toy industry,

then there are places for people who are knitters or they're

in sublimation or gift baskets.

All of that,

my umbrella with my group is handmade.

Everything is handmade or at least starts handmade sometimes then it

gets reproduced later in multitude.

But I think the value of that is everyone is a

creator. And by crossing an industry,

like you may see an industry in knitting,

if you're a candle maker that can apply,

but we can also get too niched into our own fields

too. And that's similar to,

if you're looking at a product and looking at the competition.

Yeah. I love looking at other fields for inspiration.

Yeah. And even not even products is you were referencing earlier,

just all different types of things for inspiration.

So give his listeners,

that's a tip.

Something to think about it as you go forward.

I mean,

it seriously,

if you're stuck on an idea,

reach out of where you've already been looking and thinking,

and I really liked,

it sounds counterintuitive to me,

but letting your mind just rest on it for a while.

Yes. So important.

And I was just going to say also,

I'm thinking,

you know,

have you ever done where you're thinking about something,

you're thinking about something and the answer just isn't coming to

you. And then you're like,

okay, I just putting it away for a while.

Or maybe you have plans at night or something.

And then all of a sudden the idea and the answer

or solution comes to you when you're not thinking about it

All the time.

If anything,

I'll just overload myself with more content.

If I can't figure it out,

just so that I'm like,

if I push more things into my brain,

that idea is going to come to the top.

Eventually you're trying to push it to the top.

There you go.

All right.

So let's address people who are listening right now.

So most of them make a product or are thinking about

making a product.

It might be toy related.

It might not,

but let's say that they do have an idea for a

toy since that's your specialty.

And I want to get all the goodness out of you

today. I don't know how to say this,

right? But let me just say it lots of times.

And this is for all makers,

I'll see people will make something and they love it.

And our friends and family will tell us it's wonderful because

they love us.

And then they spend a lot of time and money and

take it to market.

And nobody's buying right.

What's the step in between there that oftentimes we're missing Definitely

going to smaller craft shows and trying to sell your product

direct to consumers.

I'm not talking like New York toy fair.

I'm not even talking about Chicago toy and game pair.

Like those are still toy shows.

I'm talking your local craft shows that are happening in your

town, or maybe a couple of towns over and making either

hand-making a small sample size.

And that could just be 25 to 50 pieces of your

product and selling it to people and seeing what their reactions

are. Instead of asking people,

you can go all day and ask people like,

what do you think about this idea?

Do you think that this is a good product,

but until you're asking somebody to exchange money for that product,

you're not going to get an honest answer.

And I'm telling you,

you have to go into these craft shows and trade shows

with an open mind thinking,

whatever this product is that I'm showing it is not final.

And it is not done.

You're going to these shows because you're trying to sell it

and get feedback for what needs to be fixed or perfected

so that it can be final and done.

And if you're doing a product that's like,

maybe you can't hand make it and you have to make

it in China.

That's okay.

You can do a couple of things.

You can either.

If it's a plastic product,

there are plenty of ways for you to do rapid prototypes

of it.

So you could try to sell prototypes,

or you can just do very small runs with factories,

like a hundred pieces,

500 pieces,

super small runs and try to sell those.

But I think people's biggest mistake is developing.

Like you're saying spending too much time and money developing too

deeply before actually trying to sell it,

like really physically go out there and show it to people,

maybe record their responses.

If you can,

and get direct feedback.

I noticed this too.

And I ended up creating a program it's called start with

confidence that people go through to validate their product.

And sometimes it's as easy as I have 3 cents of

these candles.

We'll stick with that.

Cause I love candles obviously.

And they're just not the sense that are popular that people

want right now,

or the repetitive sense because we've been looking at our competitors

and know that we have to have a vanilla scented candle.

There's not enough of a difference.

We're just making some small adjustments,

opens the door to everything.

I like what you're saying,

just the prototypes too.

And I'm almost thinking,

could you do something like this?

I'm just brainstorming with you now,

because if you're officially going in sourcing factories,

you're going to actually do a prototype.

And I think we'll get into that in a minute.

You were suggesting that you could make a number of kind

of tester products,

if you will.

And I could see marketing around that by new,

on the market,

be one of the first to test the product and provide

us feedback.

Yeah. Here's a discounted rate.

Give us your feedback.

Yes. A hundred percent.

We're still in development.

Love for you to try it out here.

It is never been on the market before.

Like that sounds super special to me.

That's a lot of what Kickstarter is too.

And I've talked to a lot of people with doing toy

Kickstarters and yeah,

that's what a lot of people are doing with Kickstarter.

They're just trying to fund their first round of their product.

But usually what happens is in the process of doing a

Kickstarter, people tell you what they want to see and what

they don't want to see.

And then you might not be able to make the changes

for that specific Kickstarter run.

But if you decide,

okay, this product did really well.

I funded my Kickstarter.

I'm taking this to New York toy fair.

Then now you've have valuable feedback that not only can you

adjust your product with,

but you can tell buyers,

Hey, look,

I've sold to 20,000

people already through my Kickstarter and they all like this color.

So if you're going to start out with this product,

I suggest you go with the blue because that's what most

people are resonating with.

So you're going to get valuable information that could actually help

you sell your product in the next step.

Yeah, That's good.

You know,

we've never really talked Kickstarter here on the show before,

so I want to go down that road.

Yeah, definitely.

All right.

So let's say that someone has a product that they've made.

They've tested it out a little bit and then these are

all handmade at this point,

but let's go so far as to say they've connected with

a factory and they have a prototype.

Let's just kind of start there.

What do you do then?

Like if you're thinking that you're going to do a Kickstarter,

how does that happen?

Am I entering in at the wrong place?

You tell me That's a big question.

So like you have a prototype and now what is what

you're saying?

Okay. I have a prototype.

You like the way it's looking,

you've gotten a little bit of market feedback because you probably

did before you even went and got your prototype.

The only reason I'm starting there is we've talked about how

you should select a factory before we've done that part.

If biz listeners,

if you're interested in more information on production,

identifying factories and wholesale,

I would send you back to episode number one 62,

where we dive deep into all of that.

I'd love to jump ahead and start talking about Kickstarter,

Right? It depends on what your goals are.

So I've interviewed a couple of people who have done really

successful Kickstarters and some of my followers are doing Kickstarters.

And so once you have your prototype and it's functioning,

you would then place,

but depending on your factory,

whatever their minimum order is,

or you could try to negotiate for a lower one,

you would order based on your approved prototype enough pieces to

meet the minimum order quantity.

And then simultaneously you would be planning to launch your Kickstarter.

You want to make sure that before you launch the product

is already in the process of being produced or you at

least have the funds to produce it.

Because if you get full backing,

you want to make sure that the product is going to

be delivered on time.

Whatever that schedule is that you outline in your Kickstarter.

So you just want to make sure it's fully developed prototypes,

good. You're ready to place your order.

Or maybe you have just place your order before you're launching

and yeah.

And then that's it.

Then you're just going heavy on marketing.

You're going really heavy on your marketing to make sure you

can meet your Kickstarter goals so that when your backers fulfill

your project and your project goes forward,

that you don't have to say like,

Oh, actually we started production like two months too late.

And now all of your products are late because a lot

of people have had Kickstarters that just go completely because either

they couldn't meet their deadlines and then people want to pull

out or they've miscalculated like the cost of shipping their goods.

And then they have to either pull out or they end

up having a loss even after having a successful Kickstarter.

So they might end up with negative profits O G and

the whole point of a Kickstarter is to raise funds so

that you can grow bigger.

Yeah. That is the whole point.

The biggest thing,

what I've learned with Kickstarters is the biggest thing is calculating

your shipping.

If you're going to be offering worldwide shipping,

make sure you understand financially what that means,

how much that's going to cost per piece and figure out

how are you going to even cover that cost.

If you do have orders from all over the world,

because it's not like shipping to target where you're shipping to

one warehouse,

you have to ship to every individual person.

And that gets really costly,

right? If you're fulfilling the orders yourself,

which at that point,

you probably are.

You are.

Yeah. You're most likely are that a great morning for all

of us.

And especially right now with the prices going up,

who knows what I think I heard the stamp might go

up to like a dollar 50 by the year.

I think I'll be getting fewer Christmas cards this year.

Also. It's the timing of it now,

too. Right?

Everything's taking so long to get delivered.

You want to make sure that you're promising a date that

you can actually meet,

not just for when you can ship it out,

but when your factory can ship the goods to you,

to you,

I know I actually just got a shipment from China this

morning. This was an air shipment,

which was surprising because we ordered it last Thursday.

We're recording here on a Monday.

I already have it.

But the order before that,

which was just a couple of weeks ago,

took like 10,

12 days.

Now this is air shipping because they're,

it's like a smaller lot going on.

The water is a whole nother story.

Yeah, that's interesting.

I was going to say like,

maybe they just squeezed it onto a freight right before it

left, but if it's air shipping interesting.

It's air shipping,

the second one was smaller.

So they're going to find if they have space on a

plane, they'll find the job that'll fit on there.

So it's unpredictable,

I guess I would say,

especially right now.

So that's interesting just talking about Kickstarter and where some of

the failure points could be,

if you will,

is not being able to fulfill the promise that you made

because it's a timing issue.

So that's one and then the cost is another and most

likely the whole,

there is the cost of the shipping.

Yes. Those are the things that you're saying.

Okay. So let's say Kickstarter went well.

I priced,

well, lots of receptivity I'm sold out.

So I'm like feeling really good that this product is going

to do really,

really well in the market.

Now, what do I do?

You'll hear next steps right after a quick break.

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A hundred percent.

I would make sure you're going to toy trade shows.

And also at the same time,

maybe even applying for toy awards,

just to gain marketability and notoriety for your product.

And if you can time it all really well,

you could be at a toy trade show advertising that,

Oh, we're up for this award.

We're nominated for toady,

or maybe we won a Tony or maybe we won another

new inventor awards that your name is top of mind for

the people attending the show.

And when you go to these toy trade shows,

you just want to come ready with product.

There might be small retailers that are just going to take,

I don't know,

500 to a thousand pieces.

And if you have it ready,

they'll write you an order right away.

And they'll say ship it.

Here's the address.

Here's the payment information.

And if they're larger retailers there and they find interest in

your product,

they could write you bigger orders for 10,000

pieces, 50,000

pieces. So I would definitely,

if you've had a successful Kickstarter attend all the toy trade

shows, I mean,

I put together because it's really hard to find all of

them. So I put together a little book on my site

called the toy trade show handbook for toy people,

because you can find them if you Google them all.

But sometimes if you don't know the names of them,

it can be hard to find them.

Yeah. So I made that quick little PDF to help so

that all of the popular toy trade shows are in one

PDF, easy to find.

Perfect. Okay.

And so to,

for people who are just starting to listen to the show,

we're talking at this point about getting your product into a

store. So you're going to sell wholesale now versus you direct

to customer,

but there's also some things you should prepare because I'm thinking

if we ran out of our initial product in the Kickstarter

and we get an order for 25,000

pieces, let's say we need to be prepared for that too.

So I'm thinking there's some conversation to have been had with

the factory.

So, you know,

what expectations could look like and be ready for that if

indeed, that happens,

right? Yeah.

Before you start with any factory partner,

you should have an outline of questions that you want to

ask them.

You want to have an understanding of the volume.

They're able to take on how many pieces they could produce

in a month at most and minimum,

obviously when you're just starting out.

And then you want to know what their busy seasons are.

It's a pretty simple question to ask.

You just want to ask them,

what's your busy season,

from what date?

To what date and during that busy season,

how long is turnaround time?

How is the speed of what you're producing effected and how

do they prioritize their customers?

Is it first person in with the order or is it

most valuable?

Customer goes first.

And where do you fall on that line?

So you definitely want to have those conversations first and just

have an idea of how long it takes your factory to

produce things.

So when you're going to the toy shows,

depending on the show that you're at,

depending on the season of the toy calendar,

honestly now with COVID things are just,

it's like a whole new world and things are changing quite

a bit,

but usually there's a pretty standard.

There's a fall and this is a spring season for toy

buying. And you know,

when those orders are coming in,

you, they're kind of,

you can expect them.

You just want to make sure that when you're going to

these shows,

they're going to give you an order.

And they're going to say,

Hey, we want to bring this in for fall.

And you're already going to know that that means that's August,

that you are going to have to have them ready to

ship out to these toy companies.

So then you go backwards and you say,

okay, if I have to have them ready to ship August,

when does that mean that I have to get the order

into my factory and just kind of backtrack that way.

But once you get used to the toy schedule,

when orders are placed,

you'll have an understanding of,

okay, any fall orders.

They're going to expect the product to be ready by,

let's say August 31st or something like that.

They're going to expect that any spring orders,

they're going to expect the product to be ready on this

date and in March.

So you're going to get used to that timeline.

And everybody is going to operate on the same timeline.

It's not like you have to understand something new,

every toy show,

but it's going to be a pretty standard timeline.

They're not going to give you an order for 25,000

pieces and say,

Hey, I want you to deliver this like next month.

Like that's not going to happen.

No one expects that to happen.

Right. They're understanding too Well.

Yeah, they're planning.

They have to plan.

They're planning for their future.

They still have inventory sitting in their warehouses and sitting on

their shelves that they're still working through their planning a year

in advance.

So they're like,

okay, we want you in for next fall.

And they're telling you that this fall that's usually how it

works. Right.

Right. And you learn a lot of this just by time

into. And I think being at the shows,

rubbing shoulders with other people,

you just start to learn the industry,

the timing,

et cetera.

I would also add to that.

And I got caught up in this when I first started

working with China is what are their holidays?

Where they close shop.

Oh yeah.

That's a good point.

So don't be placing an order in January and thinking that's

considered production time.

I know not,

no those orders the Chinese new year,

or just have to come in way before those to be

safe. Pre-baked shut down for a whole month.

Yeah. But also now when we transition past a Kickstarter,

then I think also we need to be considering pricing because

now we're talking about wholesale pricing.

If we're going to start going to a trade show,

Yes. A hundred percent.

What advice do you have there for people?

I mean,

usually you can follow Keystone pricing and that just means it's

50%. So if whatever,

you're buying it from the factory for you double that price,

and that would be your wholesale price and you double that

price once more and that would be a retail price.

So what I would say is when you're first starting and

you're selling at the Kickstarter level,

you should be aiming to sell your product on your Kickstarter

for your retail price.

So that's two markups.

So that's the factory price.

You double that,

you get your wholesale price,

you double that you get your retail price and that should

be what you're starting with for your Kickstarter.

Now, granted,

it's a Kickstarter.

So you're going to say,

this is the retail price,

but because your backers on Kickstarter,

you're going to get a special discount of XYZ and here's

your new price.

But the reason you want to start with that retail prices,

because you don't want to go to target and Walmart and

say like,

Hey, you should buy this toy and retail it for 29

99. And then all of your sales data is kind of

showing that people only wanted to buy it for nine 99.

And they'll be like,

well, why would we put that product in our stores when

clearly it's not worth 29 99.

So when you're developing your product,

you definitely have to be developing a product that can match

the retail price point of whatever your desired retailer is.

And that's going to be completely different if it's a big

store like Walmart,

or like a mom and pop shop from your local neighborhood,

which might accept a higher price point for a smaller box,

for example.

Got it.

And I think as you're doing your research,

then at this point too,

you should be asking your factory what type of breaks you're

going to get at certain levels at certain volumes.

Yeah. A hundred percent your BOM,

which would be your bill of materials should already have built

into it.

And this is all stuff that I outlined in my course

story, creators Academy,

but your BOM should already have built into it.

Different price point breakdown.

So you'll ask them,

what's the price.

pieces versus 30,000

pieces. So you should have all of that pricing.

When you first develop your product,

they should be giving you that the different levels of pricing.

Okay. And then you wouldn't necessarily use your pricing for your

first order to base your ultimate end price on because that

price is going to be higher.

I mean,

you do have to.

So like,

you're going to give yourself a margin window.

So most of our companies they're aiming for,

let's say 55% margin and they might be willing with,

cause there's so many things you have to take into consideration.

So with discounts,

with buy backs,

defective product,

they might be willing to go down as low as like

25% margin.

So you have to give yourself and you have to define

your window of margin that you're willing to accept.

And so you have to create a retail price point.

That kind of is in between your,

let's say your price that your factory gave you for developing

500 pieces and the price that they gave you for developing

30,000 pieces or 10,000

pieces. And you have to decide what's that mid point price

that I'm willing to accept for either of those scenarios,

whether I'm paying a dollar for this,

or I'm paying 50 cents for this,

what retail price point can I accept?

And this is when people would want to come to you

and work through your programs.

Cause there's a lot to it,

obviously. Yeah,

for sure.

You want to keep your price steady.

You don't want to be going out with like one price

and then it's like drastically lower,

a drastically higher when it hits the shelves.

I mean,

if you build up all of this notoriety and trust around

your product,

you definitely don't want to be surprising your consumers by changing

the price drastically in either direction.

Because if it's too low,

they're going to say what happened to the quality,

get worse.

And if it's too high,

they're gonna be like,

what happened?

Why are you trying to rip me off?

You want to keep it steady.

Right? You're kind of when you set your first price,

you're kind of putting a line in the sand at that

point. Yeah.

Quality wise,

all of that.

You're teaching people what to relate to your product and adjusting

that is always harder than if you spend some time getting

that first price set properly.

Definitely. Yeah.

Yeah. I want to shift gears here with a question for

you that I hear in my community all the time.

It doesn't apply as much to a lot of my people,

but I think it applies to the majority of the people

that you're serving.

And that is at what point do you share exactly what

you're doing and what you're thinking and when do you start

initiating a patent for protection?

That whole big,

big question.

Right? So I mean,

this is such a hard question because there are two different

types of people that I serve.

So there are aspiring toy inventors and aspiring toy entrepreneurs.

And the answer to that question is going to be different

for both of those,

let's start with aspiring toy entrepreneurs.

Cause I feel like that's most of your listeners,

you have to define what they are,

right? I will.

So an aspiring toy entrepreneur is essentially somebody who develops a

product to sell an aspiring toy.

Inventor is somebody who develops an idea to sell.

So the entrepreneur sells a product and the inventor sells an

idea. So if you are an entrepreneur toy entrepreneur,

that means you have one product and you're like,

this is it.

This is like the next big thing.

And I am going to just like build a whole company

around this one idea and just hopefully become American girl.

Right? That's what your goal is.

So first thing to remember is not every idea is patentable

and that's okay.

You don't have to patent an idea to be able to

protect it.

You can protect the name and the brand by doing things

like filing a trademark,

you can protect your copy.

If you have some sort of special,

maybe it's a book or you have a story around your

character with copyrights,

there are other ways to protect your IP for,

if you do have a product that is like a unique

invention, one of the things you can do is you can

file or you can hire a lawyer to file a provisional

patent and provisional patent.

Usually if you do it yourself is about $70 to file

on uspta.gov.

And you can utilize that provisional patent in the early stages

of your product development and process and try to sell and

make a profit off of your idea so that you can

fund your full fledged patent.

Right? So say you do have a patentable idea and you

file a provisional patent.

It's super affordable.

People say hiring a lawyer is best because you want to

make sure you're actually protected.

You have about a year to turn that provisional into a

full on patent.

And if you don't all of your concept and everything is

kind of public domain and fair game,

and then you lose all of your protections there.

So that is where I would start.

And then if it is patentable and you've made money off

of it and people seem interested work with the lawyer,

or if you're very detail oriented,

you can try to file it yourself.

I wouldn't advise it it's complicated,

but then you would develop the full on patent.

Got it.

My brother's a trademark patent attorney.

So, so he scares me all the time when we start

talking about these things,

because it is not my area of expertise.

I know enough to be dangerous maybe,

but it's always everyone's concerned because they're worried that someone's going

to steal their idea and take it.

And I don't know,

I agree with this.

And then I also disagree.

You know how people will say,

ideas are a dollar,

a dozen,

everyone has ideas,

and everyone can also steal your ideas,

but it's difficult to turn an idea into reality or a

product into either one into actually turning it into a business

and monetizing.

Yeah. And no one is going to love your idea,

the way that you love your idea.

And it's all about execution.

When the Twain,

the streets,

it's all about,

who's going to execute it with passion and focus and consistency.

And then on the other hand,

the toy inventor.

So aspiring toy inventors that are looking to sell an idea,

which I know isn't something that we really touched on,

but it is another Avenue.

So if you have an idea for a toy and you're

like, I don't really want to like make a whole business.

Like I don't want to do all that,

but I would love to make money off of this idea.

That is when I could definitely understand if you feel like

a patent is more necessary,

but I've got a little surprise because the people out there

that are known as toy inventors,

pro toy inventors,

that just go to toy companies,

present ideas,

show mock ups of how these ideas will work and actually

get licensing deals with toy companies.

Most of those ideas are not patented.

And it's really just honestly,

a relationship and a trust game in the toy industry.

It's not that you're shouting your concept to the rooftops,

but you are signing NDAs with specific to a companies and

then showing them your product so that they will respect that

it's your product.

And that's all written out in the NDAs and things that

you sign.

So you might not need to file a,

just to protect this one idea that you're just trying to

license off to Hasbro or Mattel or something like that,

Rinsing it off.

And then they're going to take it from there after they've

paid you for the idea.

Yeah. And honestly,

they may end up patenting it,

let them do the hard work,

but it's an expensive process.

So if you don't need to,

you could definitely do provisional patent and then shop the idea

around for a year.

But if you don't need to,

I wouldn't sink my money into that.

Okay. Okay.

I think that's good.

And I've also heard that it really costs a lot of

money. I think of think of the people that we're serving

and are listening here.

They're making products and yes,

they might be a little bit individualized,

et cetera.

And clearly as the artist,

that's where the real overlay comes in in terms of the

personality and how you bring it to market and all of

that. But I have,

well I've know from personal experience,

but I've also heard from other people is enforcing some of

this and I'm not talking patents as much as I'm talking

trademarks and all of that,

the legal stuff is expensive to enforce.

Yes. That is the next thing.

Yeah. If you can't afford to patent the product,

you definitely can't afford to fight for the patent to be

respected. Yeah.

It's cost prohibitive.

Honestly, inventing is a quantity.

It's a numbers game.

So if you're going that route in the toy industry,

you just want more ideas.

You're better off spending your money to develop more working prototypes

than you are to try to patent and fight patents.

Gotcha. Yeah.

Makes sense.

And you know,

if people can see that it's like more of your time

and your dedication into promoting your idea or your product versus

protecting it.

Yeah. Ooh,

that's good.

You'll be so much further along,

I think.

Yes. So are there any really big challenges that are unique

to the toy industry that we haven't talked about that we

should be aware of?

The biggest challenge right now is COVID and I think there's

so much,

I mean the biggest change I'm seeing is how retailers are

kind of,

I don't want to say they're losing their power pole because

of course they still have power and pull,

but they hadn't been able to accept new products because stores

were closed.

So the shelves were stocked and the warehouses were stocked.

And as much as things were selling through online,

and then when stores started opening things sold through toy companies,

actually weren't seeing any of that earnings because they were just

waiting for more orders,

but the retailers are like,

we don't need any more orders.

We've got a warehouse full of products.

And even though we're selling a ton of stuff from online

and from our shelves.

So I think the struggle right now,

and until we find a cure is going to be,

what is our new calendar look like?

Are we going to still be buying in the fall and

the spring seasons?

Are we still going to buy on that cycle?

Or is it going to be something a little bit more

reactive or are we going to focus more numbers online?

Are we going to be giving more product to our warehouses

so that people can order without having to leave home?

And aside from that whole,

like, that's not enough.

The other struggle is just that I think retailers or buyers

who are the ones that are normally deciding if your product

is going to go in their store and on their shelf

are now kind of differing or kind of being led by

social media influencers and social media trends.

So, whereas it used to be,

you're trying to develop the next big thing to a target

or a Walmart buyer or to urban Outfitters buyer.

Now people are looking to social media because that has the

numbers and the likes and the shares and the eyeballs,

and even looking to content on YouTube and streaming services to

identify trends,

and then showing that to buyers and saying,

Hey, this is a huge trend.

Look at how many follows this hashtag has,

how many likes and how many posts?

And we built a toy around this idea,

and that is leading the decision of buyers where I think

they used to be a little bit more,

their personal opinion.

And now social media is taking over and showing them like,

no, no,

no, no,

no. This is what you need to buy because the mermaid

hashtag is big Pointed out to them.

I mean,

I think that's something for us to remember overall,

regardless, whatever's trending in our culture.

And if your product somehow can fit into that,

take advantage of it,

ride the wave.

Did some of your people see a lift in the toy

industry? I'm thinking of what happened with puzzles.

Yeah. I think the crafts and puzzles a hundred percent had

a lift.

I can't remember the exact number now,

but I feel like it was the overall toy industry.

Not April,

I think after April had a lift of,

I think it was something like 17% and they'd never had

a lift that high in years.

It's usually a 1% lift year over year in the toy

industry. And now it's double digits.

Right. I think I contributed to that with the puzzles.

Yeah. Yeah.

Puzzles arts and crafts.

I mean,

yeah. It was amazing.

Well, and now homeschooling again,

cause it looks like we're going to go through the fall

semester anyway.

I know education is probably the next one.

Yeah. And toys for education or keeping children just occupied besides

just what being on TV or their phones or something like

that. Yeah.

So I think if people think that way and it's not

going to work for every single product obviously,

but the point is it's not obvious to buyers to always

see that.

You've got to say it.

Yes. That is so true.

Yeah. Have you seen anybody who has been a hundred percent

wholesale, switch it up over this last eight months or so

to then go direct to consumer to What is funny is

so on one of my Kickstarter episodes,

I interviewed a woman named Eve trying to Philetus her.

Name's very hard to say.

So she has a business or a product called worldwide buddies.

And she initially started selling at like museum shops and smaller

gift shops.

And then she launched her Kickstarter.

And this is what our whole conversation was about.

We're talking about her Kickstarter and as a part of her

strategy, she had intended at a certain part of her campaign

to reach out to her retail buyers to say like,

Hey, look at our successful Kickstarter.

Are you ready to place your orders for the next season?

Now she launched her Kickstarter at the beginning of COVID in

March. So she actually said that,

yeah, by the time we got to that point of our

strategy, we were like,

Oh no,

we can't reach out.

They're not buying anything.

So, you know,

they're not even open.

They might not even have jobs.

So she was actually intending to go much more retail this

year, much more wholesale focused.

And then because of code bid ended up switching back to

being much more consumer focused.

I was just really curious about that.

And it's the right way to go for the time being

right. We're going to change with the times.

We'll see what happens as we move forward,

but just readdressing your plan and not being so like gung

ho, this is the plan we have to stick to it.

If things around you changed is important.

I'm also seeing a lot of people in the licensing shows

that have come up there,

have a lot of people saying,

Hey, we will get your product on Amazon and help you

ship your brands and your products online.

So there's a huge push,

or it seems that there is a huge opportunity for people

that things aren't just online,

but specifically on the Amazon platform.

So an Amazon handmade for our community is making a huge

push right now.

And Facebook,

Facebook Perhaps.

Yeah. Facebook shops.

Yeah. Oh yeah.

It's big.

I just did a challenge a couple of weeks ago just

within my private community.

That group,

I was referencing earlier to get people,

get their shops up because so many people just sit and

wait and are anxious and nervous and do all of that.

Looking at the competition like we were talking about earlier,

all the reasons why they're afraid to start,

but Facebook shops offers a perfect opportunity for them to do

that. Kind of just say,

okay, let's do it without investing too much time.

Is that the same thing on their business page?

Or is it different now?

It's on the business page,

but it's new.

It's not the old Facebook shop.

It's a new platform where people can actually check out on

Facebook using the Facebook cart.

So they don't need a website.

They don't like all that.

So it's very exciting,

especially I think for my community that offers a lot of

opportunity for the initial stages and then testing.

And then we were talking about if they have a product

that makes sense to be produced overseas,

then we flip over,

but the whole point is,

look and see what's going on around you and see if

that's something that can help enhance what you're doing and be

open to changing.

I think that's the takeaway there.

Okay. So tell me a little bit about how you see

COVID aside because this will end.

I know we don't really feel it might yet,

but it's someday it will end.

I know.

Where do you see taking everything as the toy coach and

your Academy and all of that?

Where are you going with this?

My vision is to more non toy people get into the

industry because what I see is there so many traditional toy

people and we're great and I love toy people,

but I feel like there are new ideas that could be

coming from teachers and doctors and scientists and psychologists that we

need to make toys that are more than just dress up

this doll or unveil this hidden gift toys that can enhance

a child's development and give them long lasting memories,

maybe even teach them something.

So my dream is just that toy creators Academy and working

with me will help people who never thought they would develop

a toy idea,

develop a toy that is just different.

That brings something brand new to this industry.

They don't have to do it alone and wonder if what

they're doing is right.

Yeah. I want to make it come through me and there'll

be a whole community.

I want to connect everybody that works with me so that

we can all inspire and help each other because so many

people want to go at this whole entrepreneurial thing alone.

And that is not the way to be successful.

You need a team of people telling you what they did

wrong, so you can avoid that and you telling them what

you did wrong.

So you can avoid that.

And that's just what I'm trying to foster love it.

Absolutely love it.

Yeah. Thank you.

Well, this has been so interesting.

It's an industry that I am familiar with slightly,

but not the nuances and all of that.

And it's been really enlightening.

I so,

so appreciate it.

Where can our listeners go and find more about you?

They can head over to,

to a creators academy.com

to learn about the course or the toy coach.com

and you can learn about everything and me.

They're perfect.

And I think we did our dad here.

I said at the top that this was going to be

fun and it really was.

Thank you so much for being here.

I shall thank you for having me really appreciate it too.

What a great behind the scenes look at a Kickstarter program.

I'm not saying this is for everyone,

but if you're producing your product and value them,

it's definitely something to consider to fund your growth.

Next week,

we're talking to a retail shop pro she's opened and sold

to retail stores and continues to recreate her vision,

to fuel her own passion and the needs of her customers.

Plus she has some big future plans.

I can't wait for you to hear thanks so much for

spending time with me today.

If you'd like to show support for the show,

please leave a rating and review.

That means so much and helps the show get seen by

more makers.

It's a great way to pay it forward and now be

safe and well.

And I'll see you next week on the gift biz on

wrapped podcast.

Bye for now.

Now I want to make sure you're familiar with my free

Facebook group called gift is breeze.

It's a place where we all gather and our community to

support each other.

Got a really fun post in there.

That's my,

of the week.

I have to say where I invite all of you to

share what you're doing to show pictures of your product,

to show what you're working on for the week to get

reaction from other people and just for fun,

because we all get to see the wonderful products that everybody

in the community is making my favorite post every single week,

without doubt.

Wait, what,

aren't you part of the group already,

if not make sure to jump over to Facebook and search

for the group gift biz breeze don't delay.